Public Sector Pensions Overpaid
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Public Sector Pensions Overpaid
Servicemen, doctors and nurses overpaid by more than £100million on pensions
Tens of thousands of former servicemen, doctors and nurses have been overpaid by more than £100million in their pensions, the Government will admit on Tuesday.
However ministers will say that they do not want the cash back, in a move which is likely to intensify criticism of the scale of public sector pensions, which are estimated to be £1 trillion in the red.
The mistake was revealed to the House of Commons yesterday by Liberal Democrat MP Vince Cable. The LibDem treasury spokesman said the error had only just been discovered and he had been asked by the head of the civil service not to publicise it for several days.
In a brief intervention, Chancellor Alistair Darling said the money would not have to be repaid but adjustments would be necessary from next year.
Mr Cable disclosed the error, which he said had been going on for decades, during a debate on the Queen's Speech. He said he was contacted by a reporter about a company, which pays out public sector pensions to former members of the armed services and NHS. The company had been wrongly paying pensions to thousands of public sector pensioners. He said: "This error had just been discovered and the company were about to start retrieving the money from the pensioners."
Mr Cable alerted Sir Gus O'Donnell, the head of the civil service, last week who asked him not to make the mistake public for several days. It is understood that written letters have been sent out overnight from the Cabinet Office to the workers affected by the mistake.
Mr Cable told MPs: "I hope none of us can face the possibility of large numbers of ex-servicemen suddenly being faced with bailiffs turning up and asking them to repay overpayments."
Mr Darling replied: "You were asking about repayments of money that has been overpaid - I'd think it would be better I make it clear that isn't going to happen. It will be necessary to adjust what's paid for the future."
Speaking afterwards, Mr Cable added: "It is critical that the Government comes clean over how long it has known about this problem. There must be an immediate investigation into how this could have gone unchecked for so many years. The Government must promise not to try and claw back any money from the workers affected.".............
Tens of thousands of former servicemen, doctors and nurses have been overpaid by more than £100million in their pensions, the Government will admit on Tuesday.
However ministers will say that they do not want the cash back, in a move which is likely to intensify criticism of the scale of public sector pensions, which are estimated to be £1 trillion in the red.
The mistake was revealed to the House of Commons yesterday by Liberal Democrat MP Vince Cable. The LibDem treasury spokesman said the error had only just been discovered and he had been asked by the head of the civil service not to publicise it for several days.
In a brief intervention, Chancellor Alistair Darling said the money would not have to be repaid but adjustments would be necessary from next year.
Mr Cable disclosed the error, which he said had been going on for decades, during a debate on the Queen's Speech. He said he was contacted by a reporter about a company, which pays out public sector pensions to former members of the armed services and NHS. The company had been wrongly paying pensions to thousands of public sector pensioners. He said: "This error had just been discovered and the company were about to start retrieving the money from the pensioners."
Mr Cable alerted Sir Gus O'Donnell, the head of the civil service, last week who asked him not to make the mistake public for several days. It is understood that written letters have been sent out overnight from the Cabinet Office to the workers affected by the mistake.
Mr Cable told MPs: "I hope none of us can face the possibility of large numbers of ex-servicemen suddenly being faced with bailiffs turning up and asking them to repay overpayments."
Mr Darling replied: "You were asking about repayments of money that has been overpaid - I'd think it would be better I make it clear that isn't going to happen. It will be necessary to adjust what's paid for the future."
Speaking afterwards, Mr Cable added: "It is critical that the Government comes clean over how long it has known about this problem. There must be an immediate investigation into how this could have gone unchecked for so many years. The Government must promise not to try and claw back any money from the workers affected.".............
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Pension Overpayments
I may be cynical but I would bet that apart from adjusting future payments, to correct the anomaly, there will be a further reduction to get overpayments back! Is everybody who is drawing a pension affected by this error going to receive an individually calcuated and explained statement of their pension position? Even if they do will it be accurate and/or comprehensible? I would think not!
Last edited by A2QFI; 16th Dec 2008 at 12:23.
If the system is such a shambles, could it be reasonable to ask if there had been any under payment to some individuals?
I bet they would not have bothered to make any adjustments if the error was in their favour!!
Time for a complete investigation me thinks!!
I bet they would not have bothered to make any adjustments if the error was in their favour!!
Time for a complete investigation me thinks!!
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I honestly dont see why individuals shouldnt have to pay back overpayments... This is a typical example that will be used at a later date by the CBI re: fat-cat public sector gold plated final salary pensions.
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From BBCi here "The government has said the money need not be repaid but thousands still face pension cuts from April."
So perhaps a drop, but no recovery of the overpayment.
So perhaps a drop, but no recovery of the overpayment.
Fascinating timing!! have just received a demand from Xafinity (WTH are they??) for a repayment (nicely timed for Xmas) The amount is substantial and was the result of A F Pensions failing to notify me that the pension split following my divorce had been activated. This activation should have been contingent on the sale of our house but, instead, was timed from the decree absolute AND I WAS NOT INFORMED. The house sale was completed recently and I was waiting for notification from AFP of the change of payment ..... NOTHING!! ... except this bald demand for repayment. Just to compound matters, I had continued to make monthly maintenance payments amounting to thousands of pounds and that is not going to be recoverable.
Nice one AFP!!!
The details with a copy of the demand have been mailed to our MP (thankfully, one of Mr Cable's colleagues) I await a reply.
Vin Rouge - presumably, you are invariably happy to place yourself in financial difficulties to rectify SOMEONE ELSE'S ERRORS .. Yes??
Nicely thought through, sir!
Nice one AFP!!!
The details with a copy of the demand have been mailed to our MP (thankfully, one of Mr Cable's colleagues) I await a reply.
Vin Rouge - presumably, you are invariably happy to place yourself in financial difficulties to rectify SOMEONE ELSE'S ERRORS .. Yes??
Nicely thought through, sir!
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Hang on, if you are too lazy to bother working out your entitlement, that is no-ones fault than your own. Why should the taxpayer body as a whole have to pay for individuals receiving an excess to their entitlement? In the main, the individuals involved will have plenty of equity in their homes, which means due overpayments could be collected on disposal of an individuals estate if necessary. At a time when the private sector is taking, in my opinion, far too large a burden from the state sector, I think for the sakes of a few million, the effort should be made to repay any overpayment. Those in the private sector would be expected to. Why shouldn't we? The token effort should be made.
I sympathize with your situation, which, in your case could be resolved between yourself and ex-spouse?
I sympathize with your situation, which, in your case could be resolved between yourself and ex-spouse?
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Hang on, if you are too lazy to bother working out your entitlement,
If the payment matches closely to 'pension estimates' from PMA over a three year period before leaving the service, and also matches 'notice of payments' letters from Paymaster, what else can we do???
Furthermore, maybe you can also enlighten me as to what the correct payment will be when I reach at age 55, after 25 years service, leaving as a Chf Tech???
'High and mighty', I await your devine knowledge on the subject, to the nearest £ will suffice.
Square of butter springs to mind.........
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At a time when the private sector is taking, in my opinion, far too large a burden from the state sector
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Now would that be Pension 75 or Pension 05 that is affected?
Seems it is the way the annual increase is added on that is causing the problem.
Government and computers just don't seem to work do they.
Seems it is the way the annual increase is added on that is causing the problem.
Government and computers just don't seem to work do they.
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Vin Rouge are you seriously saying that the private sector is propping up the state sector? If so you are talking complete @rse. Where have you been for the past 20 years? We have had nothing but the private sector sponging off the taxpayer. Privitisations, PFIs, Government 'Projects' and on top of that £300 Billion (at least) to bail out the banks and stock markets. I also find it ironic that the majority of government problems in defence, education and finance are as a result of contracting out to 3rd party private companies (which the CBI encouraged).
I have been around for the past 20 years, and I have seen a government get its country and its people into a mountain of debt for the past 8. That includes allowing the public at large to spend a hideous amount of cash by borrowing. debt that has been taxed (highly) to fund ridiculously inefficient public services, a bloated Civil Service that does little it seems other than reduce the unemployment stats and very little productivity for the nation as a whole. It needs to stop... No, Its GOING to stop, because there is no money left to pay for it.
Look, I know its tough, but its one great **** sandwich and we all have to take a bite, especially whilst the private sector is getting hammered so hard in the crunch. All I want is the nation to be fixed as soon as possible. Its going to take a lot more effort I believe than the government are letting on. We just cant carry on writing off a couple of million here and there because its small change.
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Vin Rouge,
have you ever been a serviceman? At what point of a serviceman's career do you intend he/she should turn round and calculate their correct pension, bearing in mind how the serviceman obtains pension information?
Apologies to groundies for the next bit - there's a bloody good moral (legal I'm less sure of) argument that like all other ex aircrew my pension is smaller than it ought to be, as flying pay is a regular part of pay (I'd call 22 years out of 23 'regular') but conveniently dismissed from salary when calculating pensions - perhaps you'd like to address this anomaly from the back of your horse....should not the government just bite the bullet and accept they have underpaid my pension for the past 8 years through legerdemain?
As for drawing the line somewhere - this government is indebting us to the tune of billions, the pensions overpayment info is scanty as yet but appears to be of the magnitude of, say, a badly managed PFI school in the midlands, so if you really want to draw the line somewhere perhaps we could start with the profligate waste we all see about us, rather than picking on the one sector of the population who have proved their commitment to the future health of the nation and generations to come.
Dave
have you ever been a serviceman? At what point of a serviceman's career do you intend he/she should turn round and calculate their correct pension, bearing in mind how the serviceman obtains pension information?
Apologies to groundies for the next bit - there's a bloody good moral (legal I'm less sure of) argument that like all other ex aircrew my pension is smaller than it ought to be, as flying pay is a regular part of pay (I'd call 22 years out of 23 'regular') but conveniently dismissed from salary when calculating pensions - perhaps you'd like to address this anomaly from the back of your horse....should not the government just bite the bullet and accept they have underpaid my pension for the past 8 years through legerdemain?
As for drawing the line somewhere - this government is indebting us to the tune of billions, the pensions overpayment info is scanty as yet but appears to be of the magnitude of, say, a badly managed PFI school in the midlands, so if you really want to draw the line somewhere perhaps we could start with the profligate waste we all see about us, rather than picking on the one sector of the population who have proved their commitment to the future health of the nation and generations to come.
Dave
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Yeah, dave, think you are right... Unfortunately, dont think the waste is going to be stopped any time soon.
Just so you know, I am a fellow aircrew mate, having served now for 8 years!
The calculation of payments thing... Unfortunately, I find myself having to do it every month. JPA. I really hope you left before it came in...
Just so you know, I am a fellow aircrew mate, having served now for 8 years!
The calculation of payments thing... Unfortunately, I find myself having to do it every month. JPA. I really hope you left before it came in...
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NEWT said
'If the system is such a shambles, could it be reasonable to ask if there had been any under payment to some individuals? '
Well NEWT you are correct thay underpaid my Preserved Pesion and lump sum
and it was only after a load of phone calls and letters that it was corrected.
The way my accountant found the error was because I requested an estimate 5 years before the pension became due. When it was first paid it was close enough to the expected amount that we took no action.
However during the summer I was recovering from knee replacement operations and needed a fight so I took them on and won. It was worth £800 in back lump sum, £600 in back pension and a monthley pension increase of £20 per month.
Cheers ***
'If the system is such a shambles, could it be reasonable to ask if there had been any under payment to some individuals? '
Well NEWT you are correct thay underpaid my Preserved Pesion and lump sum
and it was only after a load of phone calls and letters that it was corrected.
The way my accountant found the error was because I requested an estimate 5 years before the pension became due. When it was first paid it was close enough to the expected amount that we took no action.
However during the summer I was recovering from knee replacement operations and needed a fight so I took them on and won. It was worth £800 in back lump sum, £600 in back pension and a monthley pension increase of £20 per month.
Cheers ***
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Wait until AFPS 10 kicks in - AFPS 75/05 pays out too much for too long the MOD have 'only' just discovered.
PAS mates leaving at 55 get a pretty big pension - perhaps thats why assimmilation offers are being reduced by 65%
PAS mates leaving at 55 get a pretty big pension - perhaps thats why assimmilation offers are being reduced by 65%
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May I suggest:
https://www.forpen.org/application/
If this is going to get nasty, best you get all the help you can and the benifits alone are worth the 23 quid
https://www.forpen.org/application/
If this is going to get nasty, best you get all the help you can and the benifits alone are worth the 23 quid
Vin Rouge, you have warmed my heart - yes, really.
That, in these financially straitened times, there should be one amongst us who would be so socially aware and sensitive as to want to beggar himself to make up for someone else's errors, evokes a warm glow deep in my being.
My problem is, actually, not laziness, (although I'm pretty good at that as well!), but ignorance. This trait I share with my solicitor and my ex-wife's as we all had to resort to a financial guru (at considerable expense to me) to calculate the relevant amounts and their apportioning. AFP were presented with the benefit of those calculations by the Court and were left with the onerous chore of amending the monthly payments accordingly AND initiating them at the Court's specified time AND INFORMING me that this had happened. They, lamentably, failed totally, on all three counts. Now, while you would obviously wish to immediately repay the amount involved and would have the financial resources so to do, as a 73 year old pensioner my finances are rather more limiting and my 35 years service was through a period when accruing financial security was a pipe dream.
That you now operate in the lavishly rewarded conditions which allow you to be so socially sensitive means that our limited finances were the avenue for better times for those who followed us ... and so it should be. However, for me to be as forgiving as you would be would mean real hardship and my fellow-feeling then becomes less charitable.
Don't allow my Scrooge-like attitude to dampen your desire to do charitable works - especially at this time of year and if you feel an overwhelming desire to send a cheque to AFP to help them in their time of need, please feel free.
Now then, what IS that word I'm looking for????
That, in these financially straitened times, there should be one amongst us who would be so socially aware and sensitive as to want to beggar himself to make up for someone else's errors, evokes a warm glow deep in my being.
My problem is, actually, not laziness, (although I'm pretty good at that as well!), but ignorance. This trait I share with my solicitor and my ex-wife's as we all had to resort to a financial guru (at considerable expense to me) to calculate the relevant amounts and their apportioning. AFP were presented with the benefit of those calculations by the Court and were left with the onerous chore of amending the monthly payments accordingly AND initiating them at the Court's specified time AND INFORMING me that this had happened. They, lamentably, failed totally, on all three counts. Now, while you would obviously wish to immediately repay the amount involved and would have the financial resources so to do, as a 73 year old pensioner my finances are rather more limiting and my 35 years service was through a period when accruing financial security was a pipe dream.
That you now operate in the lavishly rewarded conditions which allow you to be so socially sensitive means that our limited finances were the avenue for better times for those who followed us ... and so it should be. However, for me to be as forgiving as you would be would mean real hardship and my fellow-feeling then becomes less charitable.
Don't allow my Scrooge-like attitude to dampen your desire to do charitable works - especially at this time of year and if you feel an overwhelming desire to send a cheque to AFP to help them in their time of need, please feel free.
Now then, what IS that word I'm looking for????