Nimrod R1 replacement
As has been asked above; who exactly has said we are only going to get 9? Can you provide a link? I suspect (and hope) we shall buy all 12. We need em!
"The Royal Air Force is now expected to field nine MRA4s, with the programme's three development aircraft not under contract to be converted for operational use."
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Cheers MM,
had a few friends on 666, I said 'see you later' to a them one minute, barely 15 minutes passed and they were riding home in a yellow cab... all far too hurried for a proper Nimrod sortie....
had a few friends on 666, I said 'see you later' to a them one minute, barely 15 minutes passed and they were riding home in a yellow cab... all far too hurried for a proper Nimrod sortie....
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Since when has it been decided that there will be only 9 MRA4s?
Sorry, stupid question, and thread drift. Just frustration.
So back to the KC-135 conversions - I know some boys with metal saws up near Manchester who are reputed to do a good job - buy 5 airframes, get 2 working...
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P8A off-the shelf???
What shelf with this be then. The one that will not even get a full production decision till 2013 (at the earliest!). MRA4 is far from perfect but an aircraft that has never flown and could be worse (if that is possible). If we did get the P8a when would we actually get the 1st aircraft considering the USN P3 replacement need?
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Why are we pi$$ing money up the wall, when we could buuy a P-8A off the shelf?
Regards,
MM
Last edited by Magic Mushroom; 17th Dec 2008 at 18:14.
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Clearly you missed the fact I was being highly facetious. I am quite aware of the problems, but it does not change the reality of spreading huge development costs over 9 airframes as opposed to the 108 + export orders that is the advantage the P-8 programme.
Some VERY capable and VERY highly motivated folk have been kicking the folk who make things happen on MRA4, and the programme seems to be making headway (doesn't it?). There's no denying that there have been horrendous problems, but there's every reason to believe that P-8A's problems will be at least as severe, and several years later in being solved.
Too late to change horses now.
But in view of MM's support for MRA4, I wonder what he'd think of a dusted off R5, now?
Too late to change horses now.
But in view of MM's support for MRA4, I wonder what he'd think of a dusted off R5, now?
This is the best thread I found for this topic:
India Buys 8 P-8s for maritime patrol at a cost of $2.1 billion
Of course this does not mention that the Tu-142 does low-and-slow quite well, and that it has a time of 16 hours on station and can fly to Johannesburg from Bombay without refuelling!
That said, they (and even the upgraded Il-38 Mays) are getting seriously long in the tooth and are (like any Russian system from that time) maintenance-heavy. I love the Bear (and am not really convinced about the Poseidon) but it is way too old.
(Note: 1 'crore' or 'karod' is a subcontinent number that equals 10 million, one 'lakh' or lac is 100,000. Also, As of today 70 Rupees = 1 British Pound while 48 Rupees = 1 US Dollar)
India Buys 8 P-8s for maritime patrol at a cost of $2.1 billion
In terms of the contract size, the P-8I deal supplants the $962 million deal signed with US in 2007 for six C-130J `Super Hercules' aircraft for Indian special forces.
India will get the first P-8I towards end-2012 or early-2013, with the other seven following in a phased manner by 2015-2016. The contract also provides an option for India to order four to eight more such planes.
Armed with torpedoes, depth bombs and Harpoon anti-ship missiles, the P-8I will also be capable of anti-submarine warfare and anti-surface warfare. They will replace the eight ageing and fuel-guzzling Russian Tupolev-142M turboprops currently being operated by Navy.
The P-8I planes will help in plugging the existing voids in Navy's maritime snooping capabilities, having as they will an operating range of over 600 nautical miles, with `5.5 hours on station'.
Customised for India and based on the Boeing 737 commercial airliner, the P-8I will actually be a variant of the P-8A Poseidon multi-mission maritime aircraft currently being developed for US Navy, which has ordered 108 of them to replace its P-3C Orion fleet. India, of course, remains unhappy over the US decision to sell more P-3C Orions, armed with Harpoon missiles, to Pakistan.
At present, the Navy uses the TU-142Ms, IL-38SDs and Dorniers for surveillance operations in the Indian Ocean region. It is also now in the hunt for six advanced medium-range maritime reconnaissance planes, for around Rs 1,600 crore, to further boost its snooping capabilities.
For innermost layer surveillance, up to 200 nautical miles, Navy is going in for two more Israeli Heron UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles), with three ground control stations and two ship control stations, for Rs 386 crore after successfully deploying eight Searcher-II and four Heron UAVs. There is also the Rs 1,163 crore joint Indo-Israeli project for developing rotary-wing UAVs for use from warships.
India will get the first P-8I towards end-2012 or early-2013, with the other seven following in a phased manner by 2015-2016. The contract also provides an option for India to order four to eight more such planes.
Armed with torpedoes, depth bombs and Harpoon anti-ship missiles, the P-8I will also be capable of anti-submarine warfare and anti-surface warfare. They will replace the eight ageing and fuel-guzzling Russian Tupolev-142M turboprops currently being operated by Navy.
The P-8I planes will help in plugging the existing voids in Navy's maritime snooping capabilities, having as they will an operating range of over 600 nautical miles, with `5.5 hours on station'.
Customised for India and based on the Boeing 737 commercial airliner, the P-8I will actually be a variant of the P-8A Poseidon multi-mission maritime aircraft currently being developed for US Navy, which has ordered 108 of them to replace its P-3C Orion fleet. India, of course, remains unhappy over the US decision to sell more P-3C Orions, armed with Harpoon missiles, to Pakistan.
At present, the Navy uses the TU-142Ms, IL-38SDs and Dorniers for surveillance operations in the Indian Ocean region. It is also now in the hunt for six advanced medium-range maritime reconnaissance planes, for around Rs 1,600 crore, to further boost its snooping capabilities.
For innermost layer surveillance, up to 200 nautical miles, Navy is going in for two more Israeli Heron UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles), with three ground control stations and two ship control stations, for Rs 386 crore after successfully deploying eight Searcher-II and four Heron UAVs. There is also the Rs 1,163 crore joint Indo-Israeli project for developing rotary-wing UAVs for use from warships.
That said, they (and even the upgraded Il-38 Mays) are getting seriously long in the tooth and are (like any Russian system from that time) maintenance-heavy. I love the Bear (and am not really convinced about the Poseidon) but it is way too old.
(Note: 1 'crore' or 'karod' is a subcontinent number that equals 10 million, one 'lakh' or lac is 100,000. Also, As of today 70 Rupees = 1 British Pound while 48 Rupees = 1 US Dollar)
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What are these problems with the P-8 that some of you fellows are muttering about?
I'm guessing that some at NAVAIR are wishing they had chosen a bigger tube-and-wing with a wider cabin and more unrefueled endurance. Maybe that's what's wrong with the P-8. Because of advances in platform stabilized electro-optics and acoustic homing torpedoes that can be released from 20k ft., there's less need for descent to low altitudes, which ye olde Comet airliner with a nose extension probably isn't that efficient at, either.
Why don't you gents develop a maritime patrol/ASW version of the A320 to compete with the P-8?
I'm guessing that some at NAVAIR are wishing they had chosen a bigger tube-and-wing with a wider cabin and more unrefueled endurance. Maybe that's what's wrong with the P-8. Because of advances in platform stabilized electro-optics and acoustic homing torpedoes that can be released from 20k ft., there's less need for descent to low altitudes, which ye olde Comet airliner with a nose extension probably isn't that efficient at, either.
Why don't you gents develop a maritime patrol/ASW version of the A320 to compete with the P-8?
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Boeing Navy P-8 Jet Faces $900 Million Budget Cut
Friday, Dec 26, 2008
Boeing Co. new Navy P-8 patrol aircraft for spotting enemy submarines and ships faces a cut of more than $900 million in the Defense Departmentes proposed fiscal 2010 budget in order to pay for a new warship, according to budget documents, Bloomberg reported.
Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England, in an Oct. 31 budget memo, approved shifting away as much as $940 million to complete payment for a new DDG-1000 destroyer that Congress partially funded this fiscal year. The ship is the last of three the service says it will buy from Northrop Grumman Corp. and General Dynamics Corp.
The proposal is an indication the Navy is willing to cut new aviation programs -- even one designed to replace P-3 maritime patrol craft in operation since the 1950s -- to sustain its long- range shipbuilding goal. The Navy wants to have 313 vessels in the fleet by 2020, including new ships added as others retire, up from 283 deployable vessels today.
http://www.yourdefencenews.com/boeing+navy+p-8+jet+faces+$900+million+budget+cut_19555.html
That's certainly a problem FOR the P-8 program, but that is not a problem OF or WITH the P-8.
Sez here:
Boeing’s P-8 gets its wings
By Curt Epstein
July 14, 2008
Aircraft
...
According to Boeing, despite the Poseidon’s outward differences from its airliner cousin–including a bomb bay, raked wing tips, underwing and fuselage centerline weapons stations and nearly 100 antennas–the P-8 shares 60 percent commonality by part number with its airliner cousin and could be built on the same assembly lines.
The fuselage is supplied by Spirit Aerosystems in Wichita, Kansas, the same subcontractor that supplies the 737 bodies, and is based on the latest -800 model. ...
For a 737, a typical trip through the final assembly line takes 10 days. Boeing has allotted nine times as much time for each of the five test aircraft in the system development and demonstration contract, as the airframer is expecting a steep learning curve. Keeping the P-8s from clogging Boeing’s finely tuned 737 production system was a major motivation behind the establishment of a separate line (the former 757 wing to fuselage assembly line), which could also be used to manufacture derivative EP-8s.
Perry Moore, Boeing’s director of P-8A manufacturing operations, said he would be satisfied to see the line process a Poseidon in 45 days as the procedures are refined. Once the aircraft’s stay in Renton is complete, it will then move to the integrated defense systems division for a similar length stay in final completion. First flight of the aircraft is expected next year.
Military Characteristics
One of the features on the P-8 that hints at its future service in antisubmarine work is its wingtips. Unlike the popular performance-enhancing winglets found on many commercial and business aircraft today, the wingtips on the Poseidon are a continuation of the wing, raked backward to better shed ice, given the adverse weather and altitudes the aircraft will be expected to patrol.
According to Boeing, the wingtips–not offered to commercial customers because of the additional length they add to the wingspan–give about the same level of performance as the winglet-equipped airplane. The wing also includes additional de-icing equipment. To accommodate the new design and the four under-wing weapons pylons, each of which has a 3,000-pound weight limit, the internal wing structure has been specially strengthened. The aircraft is expected to easily meet the Navy requirement for 2.2-g sustained flight, along with certification for operations down to 200 feet.
Another departure from the standard 737 configuration is the bomb bay, which has five weapons stations, each with a 1,450-pound weight limit. While the bomb bay can handle the current stores, it was designed with some growth capabilities in mind. Boeing’s engineers said they based their dimensions on the weapons bay in the Joint Strike Fighter so the P-8 could accommodate the same munitions.
Internally, the P-8 features three times more wiring and ECS ducts than a standard 737 because of the electronics suite. The aircraft features Raytheon’s APY-10 radar, which includes several improvements over the APS-137, with network enabling to allow different users to access the same information at the same time.
...
Once an operator selects a pattern for the distribution of sonobuoys–the Poseidon carries 126 per mission, double the capacity of a P-3 Orion–it is routed to the flight management where it can be considered. If approved, the autopilot can then adjust the flight to match the pattern, basically allowing the aircraft to be flown “from the back of the plane.” As one Navy requirement was for simultaneous sonobuoy drop capability, the Poseidon features three rotary launchers, each holding 30 of the marine sensors at a time. Through the operator stations, sonobuoy inventory can be managed and loading orders can be sent to the ordnance specialist working the launchers.
With a mission profile calling for an outbound trip of 1,200 miles, four hours on station and a 1,200-mile return flight, the P-8 has a fuel capacity of more than 10,500 gallons, distributed between three main and seven auxiliary tanks. Overall, the aircraft has a 5,000-nm range unrefueled and a 22-hour duration with midair refueling capabilities.
...
The P-8I will be similar to the Navy aircraft, but will include the magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) boom, which was removed from the U.S. requirements late last year. Given that the aircraft was initially designed with the MAD boom, it will be simple to accommodate customers who want to include it, according to Boeing.
Boeing’s P-8 gets its wings: AINonline
What's wrong with that?
Friday, Dec 26, 2008
Boeing Co. new Navy P-8 patrol aircraft for spotting enemy submarines and ships faces a cut of more than $900 million in the Defense Departmentes proposed fiscal 2010 budget in order to pay for a new warship, according to budget documents, Bloomberg reported.
Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England, in an Oct. 31 budget memo, approved shifting away as much as $940 million to complete payment for a new DDG-1000 destroyer that Congress partially funded this fiscal year. The ship is the last of three the service says it will buy from Northrop Grumman Corp. and General Dynamics Corp.
The proposal is an indication the Navy is willing to cut new aviation programs -- even one designed to replace P-3 maritime patrol craft in operation since the 1950s -- to sustain its long- range shipbuilding goal. The Navy wants to have 313 vessels in the fleet by 2020, including new ships added as others retire, up from 283 deployable vessels today.
http://www.yourdefencenews.com/boeing+navy+p-8+jet+faces+$900+million+budget+cut_19555.html
That's certainly a problem FOR the P-8 program, but that is not a problem OF or WITH the P-8.
Sez here:
Boeing’s P-8 gets its wings
By Curt Epstein
July 14, 2008
Aircraft
...
According to Boeing, despite the Poseidon’s outward differences from its airliner cousin–including a bomb bay, raked wing tips, underwing and fuselage centerline weapons stations and nearly 100 antennas–the P-8 shares 60 percent commonality by part number with its airliner cousin and could be built on the same assembly lines.
The fuselage is supplied by Spirit Aerosystems in Wichita, Kansas, the same subcontractor that supplies the 737 bodies, and is based on the latest -800 model. ...
For a 737, a typical trip through the final assembly line takes 10 days. Boeing has allotted nine times as much time for each of the five test aircraft in the system development and demonstration contract, as the airframer is expecting a steep learning curve. Keeping the P-8s from clogging Boeing’s finely tuned 737 production system was a major motivation behind the establishment of a separate line (the former 757 wing to fuselage assembly line), which could also be used to manufacture derivative EP-8s.
Perry Moore, Boeing’s director of P-8A manufacturing operations, said he would be satisfied to see the line process a Poseidon in 45 days as the procedures are refined. Once the aircraft’s stay in Renton is complete, it will then move to the integrated defense systems division for a similar length stay in final completion. First flight of the aircraft is expected next year.
Military Characteristics
One of the features on the P-8 that hints at its future service in antisubmarine work is its wingtips. Unlike the popular performance-enhancing winglets found on many commercial and business aircraft today, the wingtips on the Poseidon are a continuation of the wing, raked backward to better shed ice, given the adverse weather and altitudes the aircraft will be expected to patrol.
According to Boeing, the wingtips–not offered to commercial customers because of the additional length they add to the wingspan–give about the same level of performance as the winglet-equipped airplane. The wing also includes additional de-icing equipment. To accommodate the new design and the four under-wing weapons pylons, each of which has a 3,000-pound weight limit, the internal wing structure has been specially strengthened. The aircraft is expected to easily meet the Navy requirement for 2.2-g sustained flight, along with certification for operations down to 200 feet.
Another departure from the standard 737 configuration is the bomb bay, which has five weapons stations, each with a 1,450-pound weight limit. While the bomb bay can handle the current stores, it was designed with some growth capabilities in mind. Boeing’s engineers said they based their dimensions on the weapons bay in the Joint Strike Fighter so the P-8 could accommodate the same munitions.
Internally, the P-8 features three times more wiring and ECS ducts than a standard 737 because of the electronics suite. The aircraft features Raytheon’s APY-10 radar, which includes several improvements over the APS-137, with network enabling to allow different users to access the same information at the same time.
...
Once an operator selects a pattern for the distribution of sonobuoys–the Poseidon carries 126 per mission, double the capacity of a P-3 Orion–it is routed to the flight management where it can be considered. If approved, the autopilot can then adjust the flight to match the pattern, basically allowing the aircraft to be flown “from the back of the plane.” As one Navy requirement was for simultaneous sonobuoy drop capability, the Poseidon features three rotary launchers, each holding 30 of the marine sensors at a time. Through the operator stations, sonobuoy inventory can be managed and loading orders can be sent to the ordnance specialist working the launchers.
With a mission profile calling for an outbound trip of 1,200 miles, four hours on station and a 1,200-mile return flight, the P-8 has a fuel capacity of more than 10,500 gallons, distributed between three main and seven auxiliary tanks. Overall, the aircraft has a 5,000-nm range unrefueled and a 22-hour duration with midair refueling capabilities.
...
The P-8I will be similar to the Navy aircraft, but will include the magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) boom, which was removed from the U.S. requirements late last year. Given that the aircraft was initially designed with the MAD boom, it will be simple to accommodate customers who want to include it, according to Boeing.
Boeing’s P-8 gets its wings: AINonline
What's wrong with that?
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Nimrod R1 Replacement
Lots of thread drift here we've wandered into a discussion on MR2 replacement. P8A has nothing to do with RI replacement.
The Role of the R1 and the Nimrod MR2/4 are (still) significantly different but I guess that a P8 airframe (or any other wide body jet) could be useful for a future R1 replacement.
Incidently, anyone else out there got XV249 in their log book in all 3 of it's guises, MR1, MR2 and R1?
The Role of the R1 and the Nimrod MR2/4 are (still) significantly different but I guess that a P8 airframe (or any other wide body jet) could be useful for a future R1 replacement.
Incidently, anyone else out there got XV249 in their log book in all 3 of it's guises, MR1, MR2 and R1?
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Quote:
"The Royal Air Force is now expected to field nine MRA4s, with the programme's three development aircraft not under contract to be converted for operational use."
"The Royal Air Force is now expected to field nine MRA4s, with the programme's three development aircraft not under contract to be converted for operational use."
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Pointless semantics, Riskman. The article says the three development aircraft are not under contract, and by definitition that means that they are not under contract "yet".
To my mind this is a no-brainer. More than £3 billion has now been spent on the MRA4 project, so it can't be cancelled, and there are three good airframes sitting there that could very sensibly be converted as R1 replacements, ensuring fleet commonality where possible.
The "let's buy the P-8" lobby are wrong on this one - it's a maritime patrol aircraft, and there's currently no funded programme to develop the 737 for SIGINT or any other special mission, so wait for it and lose another valuable capability.
To my mind this is a no-brainer. More than £3 billion has now been spent on the MRA4 project, so it can't be cancelled, and there are three good airframes sitting there that could very sensibly be converted as R1 replacements, ensuring fleet commonality where possible.
The "let's buy the P-8" lobby are wrong on this one - it's a maritime patrol aircraft, and there's currently no funded programme to develop the 737 for SIGINT or any other special mission, so wait for it and lose another valuable capability.