Overpayment Screw Up
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Overpayment Screw Up
Having taken a career break back in April and using a different bank account to live off, I was rather suprised to find out in September that the RN had continued to pay me.
The thought of keeping my head down and hoping that nobody would notice was considered for a short while but in October I popped into the UPO and told them of the mistake.
No worries (I thought), I still have the money and so offered to repay the full amount that I had been overpaid. No problem I was told. I wrote a cheque for the full amount and went on my merry way.
Oh dear. One month later the idiots in JPAC are demanding that I repay the full GROSS amount!!! Errrrr hang on I (and my UPO said) that is ridiculous, one can only repay what has been received and not a penny more. They argue that they have paid the Tax and NI for me and therefore I should pay it back to them and then claim it back from the Tax and NI office.
Problem 1: I do not have a spare £7k to give back to JPAC (to lose, spend on the christmas party etc etc) as I NEVER received it.
Problem 2: Having spoken to the Tax office they are not remotely interested in helping as they say it is between me and my employer.
Problem 3: Whilst they have tried to help, my local UPO has no expertise in this matter and even with the intervention of a tamed Commander JPAC are admant that I owe them £7k.
Does anyone have any experience of a similar situation or is fluent in the language of Tax and NI and can offer some advice?
JPAC are stating that they will recover the £7k through 4 days pay a month from March when I return to work. This is money that I never bloody had though. Agggghhhhhhhhh
NGB
The thought of keeping my head down and hoping that nobody would notice was considered for a short while but in October I popped into the UPO and told them of the mistake.
No worries (I thought), I still have the money and so offered to repay the full amount that I had been overpaid. No problem I was told. I wrote a cheque for the full amount and went on my merry way.
Oh dear. One month later the idiots in JPAC are demanding that I repay the full GROSS amount!!! Errrrr hang on I (and my UPO said) that is ridiculous, one can only repay what has been received and not a penny more. They argue that they have paid the Tax and NI for me and therefore I should pay it back to them and then claim it back from the Tax and NI office.
Problem 1: I do not have a spare £7k to give back to JPAC (to lose, spend on the christmas party etc etc) as I NEVER received it.
Problem 2: Having spoken to the Tax office they are not remotely interested in helping as they say it is between me and my employer.
Problem 3: Whilst they have tried to help, my local UPO has no expertise in this matter and even with the intervention of a tamed Commander JPAC are admant that I owe them £7k.
Does anyone have any experience of a similar situation or is fluent in the language of Tax and NI and can offer some advice?
JPAC are stating that they will recover the £7k through 4 days pay a month from March when I return to work. This is money that I never bloody had though. Agggghhhhhhhhh
NGB
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JPAC have deducted tax and NI at source, and while you could recover the excess tax deducted by JPAC by completing a self-assessment form and submitting your P60 (not issued until April 09) to show that you'd been over-taxed, you can not recover the NI in the same way. It would mean that you'd be giving HMG an interest-free loan for the period from the full amount being deducted/paid until the refund of the tax comes through, and I can't see why you should suffer because of their mistake.
Since it's JPAC's fault, I suggest you ask JPAC to sort it out. They can if they want to, but it probably will make their heads hurt.
In the mean time, write a cheque for the net pay you've been overpaid, and post it by recorded delivery to JPAC, with a letter explaining. That way they can't moan that you've done nothing, and I can't see how they could possibly take any action against you.
Since it's JPAC's fault, I suggest you ask JPAC to sort it out. They can if they want to, but it probably will make their heads hurt.
In the mean time, write a cheque for the net pay you've been overpaid, and post it by recorded delivery to JPAC, with a letter explaining. That way they can't moan that you've done nothing, and I can't see how they could possibly take any action against you.
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Cheers AA. This is the problem though, I have repaid the NET amount and did so straight away. JPAC have cashed this cheque but are still saying I owe them £7k, the difference between the NET and the GROSS amount. I am arguing with them that I do not have the £7k, even if I could claim it back. So they are now saying that they will deduct this £7k directly from my pay when I return to work. At this point I might be able to then claim back from the Tax man what I had just paid out?
All bloody confusing. One thing I do know is that it is their mistake but they don't seem to be able to resolve it without taking money back from me!
All bloody confusing. One thing I do know is that it is their mistake but they don't seem to be able to resolve it without taking money back from me!
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I've known of people being overpaid before (admittedly not as much) and Pusser took back the Net amount.
Although it will be stressful, stick it out - I doubt if any court in the land would see it their way, and I doubt if your CO would side with JPAC. Good luck, hopefully someone with a bit of knowledge will be able to assist you or point you in the right direction soon
Although it will be stressful, stick it out - I doubt if any court in the land would see it their way, and I doubt if your CO would side with JPAC. Good luck, hopefully someone with a bit of knowledge will be able to assist you or point you in the right direction soon
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Your payroll office (sorry, not sure of the correct acronym!) should/might be able to re-jig their payroll records now that you have repaid the net amount.
Since you've repaid it they no longer have to have paid the tax on your behalf. If they deduct the amount you have repaid from their next report to HMRC then they can deduct the tax and NI that they have now overpaid on your behalf from the tax they've got to pay for everybody else. (Not sure I've explained that very well, it's my third go at typing it and it's not getting any better!)
If they still aren't very co-operative (you might need to speak to someone in your payroll department who really 'knows the job', no disrespect to anyone there) then try phoning your tax office again yourself and if the person who picks up the call still quotes the 'it's between you and your employer' line (unfortunately the call centres can sometimes be under pressure to 'wrap up' calls quickly if they are busy) then ask to speak to a manager and ask them to speak to the payroll department on your behalf. It depends who you get but hopefully you'll get through to someone helpful.
If I haven't explained it very well let me know and I'll have another go.
Since you've repaid it they no longer have to have paid the tax on your behalf. If they deduct the amount you have repaid from their next report to HMRC then they can deduct the tax and NI that they have now overpaid on your behalf from the tax they've got to pay for everybody else. (Not sure I've explained that very well, it's my third go at typing it and it's not getting any better!)
If they still aren't very co-operative (you might need to speak to someone in your payroll department who really 'knows the job', no disrespect to anyone there) then try phoning your tax office again yourself and if the person who picks up the call still quotes the 'it's between you and your employer' line (unfortunately the call centres can sometimes be under pressure to 'wrap up' calls quickly if they are busy) then ask to speak to a manager and ask them to speak to the payroll department on your behalf. It depends who you get but hopefully you'll get through to someone helpful.
If I haven't explained it very well let me know and I'll have another go.
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Did the career break start after 6 April? If so, we are still in the current tax year, and everything should be very simple.
In this case, the net return of monies paid is all that should be required. The gross sum is not the employee's responsibility to pay. This is why the employer operates PAYE in the first place FFS!!!
I am ex-HMRC (admittedly a long time ago...) but I know how PAYE operates. JPAC, like every other employer in the land, will have to make a monthly return and payment to HMRC for all deductions (employee's and employer's) that are due. Since the payments have been made to you in error, a negative payment situation arises, in which you pay back what you have received, and JPAC should enter a suitable negative figure for all your employee's and employer's deductions on the HMRC returns. They pay £XXXX less to HMRC in the next monthly return. The situation is now corrected. End of story. Or that's how it should be.
The only way it could become complicated is if the total deductions in respect of your period of incorrect payment exceed JPAC's total monthly return payment for every member of personnel in the forces. In which case I am very pleased for you!!!!
Stick to your guns. Google employment law if you get a bit of spare time, and ask an accountant if you can find one for some quick advice on how to tackle it.
This is not your money (or responsibility) to have to pay back...
In this case, the net return of monies paid is all that should be required. The gross sum is not the employee's responsibility to pay. This is why the employer operates PAYE in the first place FFS!!!
I am ex-HMRC (admittedly a long time ago...) but I know how PAYE operates. JPAC, like every other employer in the land, will have to make a monthly return and payment to HMRC for all deductions (employee's and employer's) that are due. Since the payments have been made to you in error, a negative payment situation arises, in which you pay back what you have received, and JPAC should enter a suitable negative figure for all your employee's and employer's deductions on the HMRC returns. They pay £XXXX less to HMRC in the next monthly return. The situation is now corrected. End of story. Or that's how it should be.
The only way it could become complicated is if the total deductions in respect of your period of incorrect payment exceed JPAC's total monthly return payment for every member of personnel in the forces. In which case I am very pleased for you!!!!
Stick to your guns. Google employment law if you get a bit of spare time, and ask an accountant if you can find one for some quick advice on how to tackle it.
This is not your money (or responsibility) to have to pay back...
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As Pontius Navigator says if you are retiring you may be able to get an in-year rept from HMRC but if you are 'just' on a career break and have not received a P45 the Revenue probably won't consider a repayment until you've had your P60 End of Year certificate after april. Oh, check that carefully when it arrives and make sure it reflects the fact that you've paid back your net pay.
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then you do indeed owe them the employee NI figures that they paid over in good faith too. They are only asking that you repay the employees sum that they paid over
These were deductions from the payments at source - NGB never saw them! JPAC only paid NGB a net figure originally, and kept the employee's deductions to pay over to HMRC. They can't ask for this from the employee twice... If JPAC have paid the deductions over to HMRC, it is incumbent on JPAC to reclaim them from HMRC, not NGB!
Hope this helps...
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Just a query that may help or hinder your case (depending on the answer). Did you continue to receive pay chits for the period of your break? If you did it weakens your case but if not then it would surely give a solicitor some ammo.
(I'm assuming BTW that chits are still issued? If you had to rely on JPA to which you had no access then that is the same as "no chits")
I wish you luck.
(I'm assuming BTW that chits are still issued? If you had to rely on JPA to which you had no access then that is the same as "no chits")
I wish you luck.
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NATS did the exact same to me. Few months overpayment, I told them, no thanks from them. Then they "clawed back" the entire gross amount, and just couldnt understand why I was ever so slightly pissed off by it. Idiots.
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Well I sympathise I just had £230 taken from me this month due to overpayment in LSA, not a good time before xmas but on same note I should have kept the overpayed cash If i only knew I was overpayed.
Anyway just going to mention Citizens Advice to you , I know JPAC and all that are run by civvies so all laws apply to them, Just an idea from proffesionals not adminers who not trained very well.
Good luck
Anyway just going to mention Citizens Advice to you , I know JPAC and all that are run by civvies so all laws apply to them, Just an idea from proffesionals not adminers who not trained very well.
Good luck
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I have to say that you have a few options here but the best would be.....
1. TheyWorkForYou.com: Are your MPs and Peers working for you in the UK's Parliament?
2. The Sun | The Best for News, Sport, Showbiz, Celebrities & TV | The Sun| The Sun
3. NFF - Naval Families Federation
Option 3 is by far the best option. Ring them on 023 9265 4374 and they will sort it out
1. TheyWorkForYou.com: Are your MPs and Peers working for you in the UK's Parliament?
2. The Sun | The Best for News, Sport, Showbiz, Celebrities & TV | The Sun| The Sun
3. NFF - Naval Families Federation
Option 3 is by far the best option. Ring them on 023 9265 4374 and they will sort it out
Me old ship mate,
Had a drama of epic proportions about 6 years ago that was eventually sorted by my accountatnt bringing pressure to bear on MoD and keeping HMRC at bay (actually, they were very reasonable). PM me for details, he is in the Salisbury area.
A pongo pal
Had a drama of epic proportions about 6 years ago that was eventually sorted by my accountatnt bringing pressure to bear on MoD and keeping HMRC at bay (actually, they were very reasonable). PM me for details, he is in the Salisbury area.
A pongo pal
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The mistake you made was in paying it back.
Prior to handing a penny of it over YOU should have negotiated the terms of the deal, whilst you had the leverage!
Prior to handing a penny of it over YOU should have negotiated the terms of the deal, whilst you had the leverage!
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They don't really pay the money to the tax department on your behalf. They just pay a lump sum that covers all the wages that they have paid. They should be able to short pay the tax department next pay period (or however often they remit the tax) and adjust their internal accounts.
It all gets sorted out once a year when they tell the tax dept how much money you have been paid.
I reckon it's easier for them to try to get the money from you rather than sort it out themselves.
Nb. this is just my opinion, not sure of the ins and outs of the UK tax system, but they should sort it out, not have you do it.
It all gets sorted out once a year when they tell the tax dept how much money you have been paid.
I reckon it's easier for them to try to get the money from you rather than sort it out themselves.
Nb. this is just my opinion, not sure of the ins and outs of the UK tax system, but they should sort it out, not have you do it.
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Try asking JPA for the money back that you have sent them, and tell them not to pay you for the first 5-6 months when you are back at work.
If you then subsequently decide not to go back to work all they need to do is deduct the money owing from your pension lump sum.
Worth a try at least?
Y_G
If you then subsequently decide not to go back to work all they need to do is deduct the money owing from your pension lump sum.
Worth a try at least?
Y_G
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Many thanks for all your replies. The most frustrating thing is that there doesn't seem to be anyone in JPAC that has a clue what they are talking about, and supposedly I have spoken to the "right" department.
I shall try the numbers that I have received via PM and see where that gets me, also from other PM's it would appear that I am not alone with this issue and in all cases JPAC have acted like a bunch of cowboys who take a very bullying tone.
NGB
I shall try the numbers that I have received via PM and see where that gets me, also from other PM's it would appear that I am not alone with this issue and in all cases JPAC have acted like a bunch of cowboys who take a very bullying tone.
NGB