24hr Bottle To Throttle Rule Inbound?
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I think it's unfair to expect people to stay teetotal just on the offchance they might get an unexpected trip.
You should be on the flypro, or on an official standby, or should be given a definite period that you are free for - eg 'you aren't on standby, the earliest you'll be airborne is 12 hrs from being called'. It's a career, not a job, but it isn't a calling.
Wartime it all goes to pot of course - but it's not fair to expect people to spend years sitting in flying kit next to the phone, being grabbed at no notice so they can go do a training sortie for practise just 'cos some airframe came 'S' unexpectedly.
(In wartime getting pi$$ed is part of the preflight, anyhow).
Harry Staish, early hours of yet another holiday ruined...I'd landed after another 8 or 9 hours of buoy loading
HS: - 'Are you coming or going?'
Me: - 'Wish I fecking knew, Sir'
(All that saved me was that I was in Int drinking coffee by the time he'd believed his ears. Mind you, promotion and myself were pretty much strangers over my career).
You should be on the flypro, or on an official standby, or should be given a definite period that you are free for - eg 'you aren't on standby, the earliest you'll be airborne is 12 hrs from being called'. It's a career, not a job, but it isn't a calling.
Wartime it all goes to pot of course - but it's not fair to expect people to spend years sitting in flying kit next to the phone, being grabbed at no notice so they can go do a training sortie for practise just 'cos some airframe came 'S' unexpectedly.
(In wartime getting pi$$ed is part of the preflight, anyhow).
Harry Staish, early hours of yet another holiday ruined...I'd landed after another 8 or 9 hours of buoy loading
HS: - 'Are you coming or going?'
Me: - 'Wish I fecking knew, Sir'
(All that saved me was that I was in Int drinking coffee by the time he'd believed his ears. Mind you, promotion and myself were pretty much strangers over my career).
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As a Tanker Captain you not only have to keep an eye on your own crew but sometimes your customers as well. Many moons ago, having diverted into a popular holiday centre accompanying a FJ that was leaking fuel faster than we could put it in, we were forced to spend a few days in a resort hotel awaiting spares. The FJ crew were without any change of kit or allowances so were provided with the wherewithal by our impress holder. This proved too much of a treat and on the first possible recovery day, on going down for breakfast, we were met by said pair coming into the hotel, just able to hold each other up, swearing they could hack it. Not behind my tanker you couldn't. Fortunately for them their aircraft did not come up for reasons I did not feel inclined to inquire about too deeply and a very contrite and sober pair flew out the next day.
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Hmm. Interesting to compare this thread with the argument that you should wear a flying suit even when not on the Flypro, as you could be asked to fly immediately. Presumably we wouldn't be seeing anyone in flying suits in the bar during the week then?
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Day after a dining in night "down south" I was woken unreasonably early to be told that we were flying, as both F3 were u/s and there was a QRA based alert on (C 130 launch on QRA?????????). It was a planned day off, and the powers knew that we were dining -in because they were equally plastered at 2 AM. I rolled into work and point blank refused to fly. OC ops wasnt to happy, but didnt push the issue. Only thing that worried me was the willingness of others to appease him while being considerably worse for wear than I was.
Secondly, I am sure a medic will fill in the gaps, but if I have 4 pints(for example), at lunchtime on Sunday, how much of that alchol is in my system at noon the next day.? If it is zero, then a 24 hour rule is unenforcable anyway.
Secondly, I am sure a medic will fill in the gaps, but if I have 4 pints(for example), at lunchtime on Sunday, how much of that alchol is in my system at noon the next day.? If it is zero, then a 24 hour rule is unenforcable anyway.
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In the early 90s I was on the Duty Working Crew (at the secret Wiltshire airbase) one Friday. We were stood down so despatched with all speed for happy hour to start drinking, shortly followed by a tannoy for the DWC - I took the call, & Ops said they had a task for us, a fast taxy test for a nosewheel shimmy - I pointed out that we'd all been drinking, & the OpsO asked 'How many have you had?' !! It may not have been 'flying' exactly, but still 'drunk in charge of a vehicle'....
I was always led to believe that the In-flight meal boxes provided by the French Air Force contained a small bottle of wine.....
A friend who was on Nimrods in the 70s was stood down & in the bar when Staneval called him up, looking to do a check ride. When advised that he had been drinking, Staneval said, 'You've haven't had more than one pint have you?'!
I was always led to believe that the In-flight meal boxes provided by the French Air Force contained a small bottle of wine.....
A friend who was on Nimrods in the 70s was stood down & in the bar when Staneval called him up, looking to do a check ride. When advised that he had been drinking, Staneval said, 'You've haven't had more than one pint have you?'!
I can only presume that there is an unwritten 'emergency only' rule privy to senior auths when a highly urgent scenario arises...
I was once enjoying a pre-prandial G&T when the phone rang - an urgent requirement for a 3rd Q tanker launch as the Sovs were getting playful (yes, we had enough serviceable jets back in those days and it was a very 'can do' squadron!). I told the auth that I'd had a few sips, to which he replied "I'm allowed to let you fly as long as you haven't had more than one". I hadn't, he was OK with that, we launched with the very able co-pilot as flying pilot and the Int boys got the first good photos of a Bear Golf as a result.
Agree with you, Stoppers! Man up, wet pants - and don't fix wot ain't broke!
I was once enjoying a pre-prandial G&T when the phone rang - an urgent requirement for a 3rd Q tanker launch as the Sovs were getting playful (yes, we had enough serviceable jets back in those days and it was a very 'can do' squadron!). I told the auth that I'd had a few sips, to which he replied "I'm allowed to let you fly as long as you haven't had more than one". I hadn't, he was OK with that, we launched with the very able co-pilot as flying pilot and the Int boys got the first good photos of a Bear Golf as a result.
Agree with you, Stoppers! Man up, wet pants - and don't fix wot ain't broke!
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Bottle to Throttle
These days I would be more concerned about what was being smoked or snorted pre-flight. Most booze is readily detected if it has been over-indulged in, not so easy to detect those on dope. 
Join Date: Apr 2002
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As a VERY rough rule of thumb, the body processes one unit of alcohol every hour. So take an average 
Sunday session:
Curry lunch at the Mess, arrive at 12.00, 4 pints, feeling bit full, switch to wine, 4 glasses, back to my place, feeling better now, 4 more pints, call out for a pizza, 2 glasses of wine, one for the road? Alright, just a double Remy if you insist.
Total intake: 24 units. 12 units processed during the day, so you stagger of to bed at midnight with 12 units in your blood.
First wave? Met brief at 08.00? 4 units left, so that is the equivalent of 2 double vodkas for breakfast. Yum!
On the programme for a midday take-off? Blood alcohol effectively zero (unless you had 2 double vodkas for breakfast!)
Summary: It needs to be a BLOODY good session before the 12 hour rule is inappropriate.
Sunday session:Curry lunch at the Mess, arrive at 12.00, 4 pints, feeling bit full, switch to wine, 4 glasses, back to my place, feeling better now, 4 more pints, call out for a pizza, 2 glasses of wine, one for the road? Alright, just a double Remy if you insist.
Total intake: 24 units. 12 units processed during the day, so you stagger of to bed at midnight with 12 units in your blood.
First wave? Met brief at 08.00? 4 units left, so that is the equivalent of 2 double vodkas for breakfast. Yum!
On the programme for a midday take-off? Blood alcohol effectively zero (unless you had 2 double vodkas for breakfast!)
Summary: It needs to be a BLOODY good session before the 12 hour rule is inappropriate.
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never heard of a drink induced flying accident in my time but I met a lot of miserable sober people who couldn't fly but were good at making life miserable for those who did.
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Summary: It needs to be a BLOODY good session before the 12 hour rule is inappropriate. 
The nasty by products of alcohol can hang around degrading performance for a long time depending on various factors. In the days when I was a fairly serious rower (rowing with oars, not fists), after a bit of a drink it would sometimes take three days before my erg times were back to their peak.
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When I was in flying training we were told that the 24 hour rule was due, specifically, to the fact that alcohol remains in the inner ear fluid for up to 24 hours making it more sensitive to motion and therefore raising the potential for disorientation/Coriolis Effect. Now, it might have been a wily old FS Loadie trying to justify the rule with "science", but that's what we were told...
Living the dream..
.. or at least a version of it.
Interesting to compare this thread with the argument that you should wear a flying suit even when not on the Flypro, as you could be asked to fly immediately. Presumably we wouldn't be seeing anyone in flying suits in the bar during the week then?
<whoosh!>
Think the Occasional Aviator's observation passed the majority here by as no-one picked up on it.
Always seemed to me that there were/are quite a few people out there who needed to bolster their insecure egos with the "security blanket" offered by a flying suit before knocking back the pints.. We Brits have an odd relationship with alcohol.. Glad to leave all of that behind.
sv
Interesting to compare this thread with the argument that you should wear a flying suit even when not on the Flypro, as you could be asked to fly immediately. Presumably we wouldn't be seeing anyone in flying suits in the bar during the week then?
<whoosh!>
Think the Occasional Aviator's observation passed the majority here by as no-one picked up on it.
Always seemed to me that there were/are quite a few people out there who needed to bolster their insecure egos with the "security blanket" offered by a flying suit before knocking back the pints.. We Brits have an odd relationship with alcohol.. Glad to leave all of that behind.
sv
Last edited by PPRuNeUser0139; 17th Oct 2008 at 21:16.
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Why not just transpose the current UK drink driving limits to aviation and then install breathalysers on every sqn auth/ops desk, every engineer 'line office' and every ATC. Employ the less than useful scuffers to monitir/administer the system. 3 strikes and you're fizzed. 3 fizzers and you're surplus to service needs. Job done - I vote Grabbers for CAS
Thread Starter
As many people have pointed out, the 12hr rule is eminently sensible and self policed to great effect. True, some people may kick the ar*e out of it but those same people are even less likely to adhere to a more restrictive rule.
Standby crews? Fine if you have the people available.
No drinking on school nights? Unless I'm on leave, every night is a potential school night, weekends are strictly notional. 12 hrs bottle to throttle ties neatly in with my 12 hrs required crew rest before reporting.
No drinking as on det / at sea? When was the last time you spent 6 years on det / at sea?
The day when I get given a fixed roster with unchangeable working days, or a guarantee of not less than 24hrs callout, is the day I will see this as workable.
Anyway, its Friday night, I off to get hoovered!!!!
Standby crews? Fine if you have the people available.
No drinking on school nights? Unless I'm on leave, every night is a potential school night, weekends are strictly notional. 12 hrs bottle to throttle ties neatly in with my 12 hrs required crew rest before reporting.
No drinking as on det / at sea? When was the last time you spent 6 years on det / at sea?
The day when I get given a fixed roster with unchangeable working days, or a guarantee of not less than 24hrs callout, is the day I will see this as workable.
Anyway, its Friday night, I off to get hoovered!!!!