Formation Flying question
(a bear of little brain)
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Location: 51 10 03.70N 2 58 37.15W
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Formation Flying question
Hopefully there is someone here who can settle a pub argument, before it turns into a full-scale brawl. The argument is about the numbering of the aircraft in a 'diamond nine'. The general consensus is the formation is:-
. 1
. 2 3
. 4 5 6
. 7 8
. 9
but I have reason to believe it may be:-
. 1
. 2 3
. 6 5 4
. 7 8
. 9
Can anyone who knows confirm which is right please.
(And the thing looked ok when I sent it. Damn editor keeps shifting it left on the line).
. 1
. 2 3
. 4 5 6
. 7 8
. 9
but I have reason to believe it may be:-
. 1
. 2 3
. 6 5 4
. 7 8
. 9
Can anyone who knows confirm which is right please.
(And the thing looked ok when I sent it. Damn editor keeps shifting it left on the line).
Last edited by MadsDad; 9th Oct 2008 at 23:06. Reason: to try to tidy the thing up
(a bear of little brain)
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Thanks for your responses gents.
From the sounds of this everybody is going to have to buy everybody else a drink.
From the sounds of this everybody is going to have to buy everybody else a drink.
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Formation Flying Question
As I have a non FJ background and it was a long time ago anyway, can someone in the know explain in a tactical low level cross-over, who goes high and who goes low? I seem to recall that the guy on the left stayed low and that the guy on the right went high.
This makes sense in a side-by-side cockpit as in the Vampire, JP or Hunter T7/T8 with P1 sitting on the left but I may have got this wrong. Might be the reason why I was sent Group 2!
MB
This makes sense in a side-by-side cockpit as in the Vampire, JP or Hunter T7/T8 with P1 sitting on the left but I may have got this wrong. Might be the reason why I was sent Group 2!
MB
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Madbob,
I too eventually went 2 Gp, but I seem to recall it all involved lots of " chicken...tikka...masalla"! Perhaps I ended up in the right place then.
I too eventually went 2 Gp, but I seem to recall it all involved lots of " chicken...tikka...masalla"! Perhaps I ended up in the right place then.
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Tac Formation
In my experience the crew initiating the turn avoided the other ac. Bit more "A" level when doing night /IMC parallel track though, with "box" turns and the like.
3P
3P
outside man avoids... and if there is no outside man "tac-wingman" avoids
is my understanding.... (although I've had two near misses as "tac-lead" so perhaps my word is best not taken!)
is my understanding.... (although I've had two near misses as "tac-lead" so perhaps my word is best not taken!)
Seem to recall 3456 states 'evens on the right and odds on the left' ie
1
3 2
5 6 4
7 8
9
Believe the 'experts' swap 7 & 9 and use:
1
3 2
5 6 4
9 8
7
All shown from above!
1
3 2
5 6 4
7 8
9
Believe the 'experts' swap 7 & 9 and use:
1
3 2
5 6 4
9 8
7
All shown from above!
It starts off as a basic 4 ship building block.
1
3 2
4
4 is the slot guy who sits behind #1. Note that #2 is on #1's right. General rules is #2 sits on lead's right.
Add the wingers 5 & 6 join in (general rule evens on right) so....
1
3 2
5 4 6
Then the rules progresses, evens on right with 9 as another slot filler!
1
3 2
5 4 6
7 8
9
Regarding tactical turns, general rule is lead #1 is the lowest guy in the formation, but the person turning first has the option to go high or low depending on terrain. Over flat terrain, I would expect lead to stay low and wing to go high (only slightly).
Once this initial high or low "trend" has been set (by the person turning first), then the other person does the opposite for deconfliction.
However, the contract always applies, 4 avoids 3 avoids 2 avoids 1!!
1
3 2
4
4 is the slot guy who sits behind #1. Note that #2 is on #1's right. General rules is #2 sits on lead's right.
Add the wingers 5 & 6 join in (general rule evens on right) so....
1
3 2
5 4 6
Then the rules progresses, evens on right with 9 as another slot filler!
1
3 2
5 4 6
7 8
9
Regarding tactical turns, general rule is lead #1 is the lowest guy in the formation, but the person turning first has the option to go high or low depending on terrain. Over flat terrain, I would expect lead to stay low and wing to go high (only slightly).
Once this initial high or low "trend" has been set (by the person turning first), then the other person does the opposite for deconfliction.
However, the contract always applies, 4 avoids 3 avoids 2 avoids 1!!
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On the Nimrod we used to go:
1 2
3
(4.5)
6 7
8 9
10
11
12
13
- if that's any help?
(4,5 - when we changed formation the beams would move back to acoustics...and 13 would be in the galley filling the teapot).
1 2
3
(4.5)
6 7
8 9
10
11
12
13
- if that's any help?
(4,5 - when we changed formation the beams would move back to acoustics...and 13 would be in the galley filling the teapot).
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Made I larf
DJB
Please stop making me choke on my coffee!
You could have added that on some flights (when the P1/N1 felt brave enough);
21
3
(4.5)
76
8
9
10
11
12
13
Please stop making me choke on my coffee!
You could have added that on some flights (when the P1/N1 felt brave enough);
21
3
(4.5)
76
8
9
10
11
12
13
Last edited by ShortFatOne; 10th Oct 2008 at 21:54. Reason: Obviously the AEO has had enough sun in this example and is now wandering around the aircraft lost.
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Dynamic Formation
Or, again on the Mighty Hunger, on long transits, once Biggles had it all nicely trimmed out:
1
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13
Followed by the dynamic cross-over to:
1
.
.2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Ah, we knew how to have fun in them days !
1
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13
Followed by the dynamic cross-over to:
1
.
.2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Ah, we knew how to have fun in them days !
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by MadsDad
Hopefully there is someone here who can settle a pub argument, before it turns into a full-scale brawl. The argument is about the numbering of the aircraft in a 'diamond nine'.
Presumably that Mighty Muncher reference to all the back end sharing the lavatory together was actually:
1
.......
2 3 4......etc
Quite common on a certain squadron.......
1
.......
2 3 4......etc
Quite common on a certain squadron.......