Married Quarter Standards

[Al R]

SRENNAPS,

He has the right to complain about anything, but movement is a facet of service life that he and his wife will have known about. Jesus, if puddle jumpers can colonise Texas and stave off Injun attacks whilst heavily sired and dragging children behind them, what have we come to if we have glum looking serviceman running to the BBC simply because they have a wife who can't get her own way? Will the next stage be that anyone in the RAF who has a child under 3 can work from home in case they miss those vital first steps?

And lets consider the aspect of personal responsibility. Ok, so he accepted the house with these 'problems', but come on.. she walked over a carpet which she 'knew' to be dangerous holding her ruddy child for god's sake! WTF was she doing? I see nothing wrong in making the poor little poppet honour the terms of his service, or perhaps there might be a way of recovering a percentage of costs sustained in the course of his training? I am quite happy that we don't have people like this defending the realm, but I don't see why we should also be out of pocket simply because some recruiter needed to get the numbers up a few years before.

Good riddance to the pair of them.. people like this make my piss boil and will just enforce the notion that the RAF is full of non hacking, whining, under the thumb, hysterical eejits. Lets consider the facts.

1. House accepted 500 miles from home of disgruntled wife.. all manner of faults seemingly not noticed at time of acceptance by Aaarron who resumably, is too busy reading 'Sitautions Vacant' during HoTo.
2. House has fleas - rectified within 24 hours and all DHE personnel undertaking flea reccognition on wet Fridays.
3. Mother given £100 to buy new mattress (Jesus, I wish I could have £100 to buy a new mattress!!).
4. A hinge is broken in new house, and family is put up in hotel whilst that is sorted.
5. Family (which wanted to PVR anyway) decides to share with nation and run to the BBC.
6. DHE and RAF seem to have tried everything possible to put this right, and I still remain to see evidence of the malaise. I'm sure the MQ might possibly have been a little tired, but get over it woman!!

If he had engaged constructively with the RAF, I wouldn't have minded.. I probably would have clucked my teeth in sympathy, but to think that he can go right flanking by running to the meeja exposes him and the facts to some pretty close scrutiny and having rummaged around a bit, I have no sympathy for the pair of them. As has been suggested, the DHE manages thousands of houses - lets allow them the chance to put things right (which they seem to have been trying to do) and lets keep things in perspective here.

Lets save the military hard done to stories in the media for the lads who have had their feet blown off and left to fend for themselves at railway stations eh, and not a pair of chancers like this couple and a bored copywriter who jumps on a bandwagon. Thinking in particular about the economic woes, haven't we seen enough highjacking and distorting of the real issues by the media over the past couple of weeks as it is?

[SRENNAPS]

for a military force to operate effectively, the needs of the service still come above the needs of the individual.

Did you think of that all by yourself all did you read it in some military doctrine book.

So by not posting a Jock SAC and his wife to St Athan, operational effectiveness will be truly compromised. As I said situations like this can be and should be managed more effectively in this day and age. It just take a bit of people care and effort.

Some of you really can’t see why morale is $hit out there. With an attitude like that you are part of the problem. Be a good leader and recognise it.

AL R

You don’t know the real truth behind this story other that what you have read. I fail to see how you can execute them. I would rather give them the benefit of doubt knowing from my experience how young airmen/women have been treated over the years.

[Al R]

Wherever possible, sure - people's needs should be considered, but thats never going to be allowed in ALL cases. Aarron knew the craic when he joined up and what do we do.. not post ANYONE where they don't want to go?

[wg13_dummy]

SRENNAPS, it has nothing to do with him and his doris being posted to a ****e MQ but it has all to do with him being posted somewhere he didnt want to go. Would he have blubbed to the BBC if his MQ was in Lossie?

What would happen to the forces if everyone just did as they pleased or ran to the press because they've been sent somewhere that doesnt suit them?

Get a grip. It may well be 2008 and fashionable to appear 'caring' but one thing that marks the Armed Forces out from civpop is having a bit of mettle. Something 'Aaron' appears to be lacking.

[ShyTorque]

The dreadful state of MQs was a major factor in my decision to leave HM Forces in 1994; I could relate a few horror stories too. Looks like things haven't changed much. Screw most blokes about as much as you like, no problem. Start screwing wife and kids about, game over.

[SRENNAPS]

Wg13 dummy,

Why was it necessary to post him to St Athan when there are personnel stationed in Scotland who “WANT” to get posted South (St Athan included).

He is an SAC engineer, not some one off specialist whose lack of posting would cause the RAF to grind to a halt.

And trust me when I say that I know plenty of “professional and loyal” officers who have got out of postings they did not want or wrangled ones that they did want by making a quick back door phone call.

Hypocrisy seems to spring to mind here. I am certainly the one that does not need to “get a grip”

[wg13_dummy]

ShyTorque, 'Aaron' is 22 so I would guess he has been in the RAF for about 4 years max.

Is this his second MQ?

If so, I'd suggest he's not exactly got a wide perspective of service life.

If all of us just binned it due to one or two bad MQs, there would be no one left in the forces.

I agree there is no excuse for sub standard or even uninhabitable MQs in this day and age but ffs, he doesn't appear to be terribly resilient to forces life. Crikey, next they'll be telling him what uniform to wear and making him do an annual fitness test.




SRENN;

Why was it necessary to post him to St Athan when there are personnel stationed in Scotland who “WANT” to get posted South (St Athan included).

He should have worked for Tescos if he didn't want to move outside Scotland.

I seriously cant believe you have no understanding of the services concidering you spent so long in the RAF.

[Al R]

Shy Torque,

How has his wife been screwed over? Lets face it, we know the score. She went looking for problems the moment her beloved Aarron was told he couldn't get his own way and the moment she had to leave home. What did she expect when she got married, what did he tell her about his job.. and living near a military community, didn't she know that people in the RAF sometimes have to (gulp).. move?

I have turned a MQ down because it was **** so I know where you're coming from, and I have been able to put the flat of my hand through a crack in the wall at Aldershot. Titally and completely unnacceptable, end of story - no questions asked - hang the person who prioritised ANYTHING over needs like that. But I wonder just how bad Aarron's place was compared to the likes of Upwood Drive, which was scheduled for demolition anyway. Don't you find it strange that there aren't any photos of these 'smashed windows', these 'stains on the wall' or the 'trashed carpets'? Everything has a life and it could be that the items in question here are coming to the end of their life. Or it could be that the real damage wouldn't have made such good copy?

Once again, I think that this is simply a vehicle for him to work his ticket. He had his MP on the case long before this and I find it sad that the system can be undermined in such a manner. Lets save the media slaggings for the things that are REALLY important, that have been investigated and those that have been substantiated. Otherwise the message will be diluted. Or have we just got bloody soft?

[goudie]

personnel stationed in Scotland who “WANT” to get posted South (St Athan included).

Does the 'exchange posting' facility still exist?

Re the MQ, after 3 yrs in a dingy hiring, Mrs G and I were only too grateful to get one. It wasn't perfect (I refused it at first, it was filthy) but we set to and made it so.

[ShyTorque]

I don't know the full facts of this case so won't speculate. All I can say is, from my own experiences of my family being expected to live in sub-standard conditions, I have some sympathy with him.

[SRENNAPS]

I seriously cant believe you have no understanding of the services concidering you spent so long in the RAF.

That’s the point, because of the length of time I was in I do have an understanding of service life including the aspects that cause low morale and generally pi$$ people off.

To you and a few others in the minority on this site he is just an SAC low life who should have worked harder at school. He is cannon fodder who should just do what he is told with no questions asked. He (or his wife) does not have the right to have an opinion.

This is just a thought and it may be incorrect and apologies if so. You are a pilot who probably has very little in the way of people management skills. Yes you have done theoretical leadership and management courses but unless you come into contact and manage people like this SAC on a day to day basis then I suggest that you have very little understanding of Service Life with respect to other members of the service.

Now I agree that he may be swinging the lead and trying to work his ticket, I really don’t know. But it saddens me to hear some of the comments here when you don’t know the truth. There is a bigger picture here and I don’t think you can see it.

The cause of low morale in the RAF is a lot closer to home than you think.

[wg13_dummy]

You are wrong I'm afraid. I am a SNCO and was an infanteer prior to going flying so I have more than a rough theoretical idea on managing 'cannon fodder'.

The only people who know the truth are SAC whatever his name is, the people who have directly dealt with him and apparently, the BBC.

If his situation is the norm or common, how come loads of others haven't followed his line and blubbed to the media?

We can only go on what we have seen via the press and as this is a discussion forum; we discuss. From the 'facts' presented, it appears that he has gone out of his way to cause a fuss despite the relevant people trying their hardest to put it right.

Now, if it had been the case that he was forced to live in the original MQ without anything being done then I would say he has a valid complaint (through the CoC). Then and only then once all his avenues had been exhausted, he should have sought advice from SSAFA etc. Were his direct CoC aware? I.e., Flt Sgt, WO and Flt Lt? If so, I would like to think something would have been resolved without the need to go to the media and his MP.

All in all, it doesn’t read quite right. Bloke and missus get posted to god forbid, another country. Missus doesn't want to go. He is given the ultimatum we have probably all been given by our other half’s at one time or another. The icing on the cake for him is a shoddy MQ. He sees this as a perfect opportunity to pull yellow and black. Fist port of call; the BBC. If he demonstrates that sort of commitment after about 4 years service, him and service life probably are not compatible. Plus his sprog is ginger ffs!

[SRENNAPS]

Wg 13 dummy

Apologies for inferring that you were of a higher rank. However, I am now even more surprised at the conclusion that you have come to based on a media story. Most SNCO’s I knew were a little more open minded and compassionate towards their own.

Nevertheless, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.

Mileandahalf

My comments were never aimed at yourself. However, you are right; I know nothing about your background. Why don’t you complete your profile then maybe I would have some idea. I can never understand people (especially those involved in contentious issues) who don’t even provide a simple background to what they do/did.

It made me laugh that you consider “Estate Manger” to be a term from the “old days”.


It seems that many of you have made up your minds that this young man is a good for nothing waster who is trying to pull his ticket. Maybe he is, I don’t really know and I don’t really care. To me though, I see a wider, more disturbing picture.

Despite all the bad press reports about Service Accommodation there are still big problems out there that do not seem to be being addressed (unless of course it comes to the attention of the media). Also, as for his posting (and I have seen it so many times in my career) it proves that the “system” just posts young airmen without any form of management or thought. As I said in an earlier post I personally know several young engineers stationed at both Kinloss and Lossi who do not want to be there. We all know that your “3 choices of posting” can be farcical sometimes but I think that this posting just makes a mockery of the system.

For anybody who does not know St Athan , there are not that many engineering posts there. I am pretty certain there are several Welsh personnel dotted around the country that have been trying to get there. Finally, there are very few quarters at St Athan and it would not surprise me that if he had turned it down he would have been told that he would not get another one for several months.

[JessTheDog]

My experience of FQs leads me to sympathise with AC Campbell. I was at High Wycombe where the quarters were managed very poorly. A colleague of mine was on detatchment when his family were turfed out so their part of the patch could be flogged off! There were problems aplenty (disrepairs, damp and mould etc, and my own experience waiting months for a repair) and the general feeling that, unless you were an Air Cdre or above, they weren't interested.

The RAF has a duty of care to dependents and cannot wriggle out of it by claiming operational effectiveness is a greater priority, that the quarter charges are below market rent, or any other arguments. If families are not supported then they will leave and the RAF will be a service manned mostly by those under the age of 25. Also, morale will suffer - particularly if personnel are detached and not in a position to raise problems with the CoC. Finally, a contract is a contract and DHE are obliged to deliver appropriate accommodation and the annual FQ charge is well above inflation, with a stated intention to rise towards market rates.

This isn't a new development - my mother wrote to the papers sometime around 1970 with a similar issue when my father was serving (he left when I was born) and - lo and behold - something was done about it and the CoC was not best pleased. This is why there is a need for a Federation - to allow personnel a voice with regard to non-operational issues. We all know the CoC can't do a lot now, with privatisations etc, so even the boss or CO can't do a great deal in many cases, so this is a political problem.

[PICKS135]

Amazing an airman kicks off about garbage quarters, and he's a whinger who should wind his neck in and take it like a man.

However look how many pages this has http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ot-flying.html

Its a matter of moral.

Dons helmet and runs for cover

[Al R]

You can put as many words in other people's mouths as you like, but they'll still be your words.

No one has suggested that he shouldn't raise a grievance and no one has suggested that he take it like a man, or even wind his neck in. For my part though, I have doubts about their true motives here, the facts and how and why he seems to have decided to go straight to the BBC instead of following a more productive and constructive course of action. Its that which I have an issue with.

[opso]

This is a very interesting case where so much opinion can be so strongly expressed when almost no facts are known:

Probably fact - or, at least, not disputed:

1. SAC Campbell is 22 years old, having joined at 16 on a 9 yr engagement
2. He is married with 1 child and a 2nd on the way
3. He was posted from Kinloss to St Athen
4. He has applied for a civilian job and the MoD has not released him early
5. This has come to the attention of his MP and the media

Aside from that, there are 2 distinctly different stories that should make it almost impossible for people without 1st hand knowledge to comment usefully:



Many of these claims (on either side) should be verifiable to any semi-decent journalist. However, without the verification and with such differing stories, is it really possible for us to cast aspersions one way or the other with any merit?

[taxydual]

AI R

I concur with everything you have written.

However, substitute he for she. She has the power, he has not. She is a civilian, he is not.

She can bleat to whomsoever, he cannot.

I think we are seeing a new breed of 'service Ladies, Wives, Women' (delete as rank accordingly).

Maybe a good thing.

But................ 24 yo, 1 small child, another on the way, away from Mum in Scotland for the first time (I surmise). (If I'm wrong. I apologise). Perhaps Davina and the RAF should part company.

Watch this space though for the lawsuit.






This was written during Opso's post, so they passed in the Ether.

Further addition. A bit 'Staff in Confidence' there, Opso old chap, perhaps?

[opso]

Information taken straight from the 2 newspaper reports - no other information used. I know nothing more of the case than I have seen here and the 2 linked reports - I was just interested to see how much conjecture there was on so little information and how the major differences in 2 sides of the story have been glossed over with various posters simply grabbing onto the bits that support their preconceptions.

My view - the jury's still out. However, I suspect that the DHE/MOD line could be the easiest to confirm or deny through the use of the FOIA.

[taxydual]

Opso,

Apologies.