JSF and A400M at risk?
I look forward to the first A400 appearing at Chetwynd as a tourist attraction. We've only just got rid of the wheel tracks from the last C130 to have an extended holiday there!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
A400M set for imminent test flight
The first test flight of the A400M transport aircraft is set to go ahead in the week beginning 7 December despite rumours online that the project had been scrapped altogether.
A German website had reported that the project was to be cancelled due to the scale of the cost overruns. It claimed auditors had said the project would cost €5.3bn more than was originally expected. EADS has denied the report as 'speculation'.
The A400M project is already around four years behind schedule, and European partners are currently renegotiating their commitments to ensure its viability.
Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton had asked for answers on the future of Britain's order for 25 A400Ms to be given by mid-December.
UPDATE 1-EADS denies to drop A400M military transport plane
FRANKFURT/PARIS, Dec 1 (Reuters) - European aerospace group EADS (EAD.PA) denied a media report that it was considering dropping the Airbus A400M military transport project over expected cost overruns.
Germany's Focus Online website reported on Tuesday without citing any sources that EADS could bury Europe's biggest-ever defence contract even before the aircraft takes its first flight, planned for next week. It said auditors PriceWaterhouseCoopers had concluded that developing the aircraft would cost 5.3 billion euros ($7.98 billion) more than originally planned.
The 20 billion-euro A400M programme is already delayed by three to four years, and Airbus is pressing for concessions on the terms of the contract, saying it faces unaffordable losses in delivering the 180 aircraft ordered by seven NATO countries.
"Negotiations are ongoing. Everything else is speculation," an EADS spokesman said on Tuesday.
The seven nations buying the plane include Belgium, Britain, France, Germany, Luxembourg, Spain and Turkey.
"We don't believe in the exit of the A400M project. The reputation risk is far too big for EADS," said one Paris-based trader. "We see this as the lobbying 'game' starting between EADS and the concerned states.".........
....
The first test flight of the A400M transport aircraft is set to go ahead in the week beginning 7 December despite rumours online that the project had been scrapped altogether.
A German website had reported that the project was to be cancelled due to the scale of the cost overruns. It claimed auditors had said the project would cost €5.3bn more than was originally expected. EADS has denied the report as 'speculation'.
The A400M project is already around four years behind schedule, and European partners are currently renegotiating their commitments to ensure its viability.
Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton had asked for answers on the future of Britain's order for 25 A400Ms to be given by mid-December.
UPDATE 1-EADS denies to drop A400M military transport plane
FRANKFURT/PARIS, Dec 1 (Reuters) - European aerospace group EADS (EAD.PA) denied a media report that it was considering dropping the Airbus A400M military transport project over expected cost overruns.
Germany's Focus Online website reported on Tuesday without citing any sources that EADS could bury Europe's biggest-ever defence contract even before the aircraft takes its first flight, planned for next week. It said auditors PriceWaterhouseCoopers had concluded that developing the aircraft would cost 5.3 billion euros ($7.98 billion) more than originally planned.
The 20 billion-euro A400M programme is already delayed by three to four years, and Airbus is pressing for concessions on the terms of the contract, saying it faces unaffordable losses in delivering the 180 aircraft ordered by seven NATO countries.
"Negotiations are ongoing. Everything else is speculation," an EADS spokesman said on Tuesday.
The seven nations buying the plane include Belgium, Britain, France, Germany, Luxembourg, Spain and Turkey.
"We don't believe in the exit of the A400M project. The reputation risk is far too big for EADS," said one Paris-based trader. "We see this as the lobbying 'game' starting between EADS and the concerned states.".........
....
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C17 CBRs
I must be bored!
C17 CBRs freely available here on page 33 for an unsurfaced strip.
At max strip landing weight of 447klbs, you get a CBR of 8 (10 passes)and 12 (100 passes).
It's a bit outside my experience but does anyone know the typical CBR of some example airfields - Pendine Sands or something - to calibrate a simple brain?
The bigger picture, i fear, is that strip performance isn't really a factor given that we'll always have the J-model and live in a predominantly Strat era (for now, at least). I'll stand by for a slating from the Tac-wallers out there but it strikes me that what really counts is the ability to move sheer bulk to support Ops in a far away place for the foreseeable...more C-17s please.
Uncle G
C17 CBRs freely available here on page 33 for an unsurfaced strip.
At max strip landing weight of 447klbs, you get a CBR of 8 (10 passes)and 12 (100 passes).
It's a bit outside my experience but does anyone know the typical CBR of some example airfields - Pendine Sands or something - to calibrate a simple brain?
The bigger picture, i fear, is that strip performance isn't really a factor given that we'll always have the J-model and live in a predominantly Strat era (for now, at least). I'll stand by for a slating from the Tac-wallers out there but it strikes me that what really counts is the ability to move sheer bulk to support Ops in a far away place for the foreseeable...more C-17s please.
Uncle G
Last edited by Uncle Ginsters; 2nd Dec 2009 at 18:30.
Champagne anyone...?
Fair one - "clearances" is the wrong word. I understood that Lockheed/USAF had conducted some airdrop serials at Edwards to prove that it could. Actual "clearances" for individual national chute/load combinations obviously rested with the trials organisations of the customer nations.
It doesn't really change the price of fish regarding the A400 and the time gap between delivery and its first cleared airdrop tho. Unless we have some uber joined up airbus/qinetiq pre-delivery trials arrangement then the arrival of the aircraft with a "clearance" to drop a French Jeep under a german chute reduces RAF airdrop trials by precisely zero days. It would be nice to hear that we did indeed have some UK pre delivery airdrop work planned but I shan't hold my breath
It doesn't really change the price of fish regarding the A400 and the time gap between delivery and its first cleared airdrop tho. Unless we have some uber joined up airbus/qinetiq pre-delivery trials arrangement then the arrival of the aircraft with a "clearance" to drop a French Jeep under a german chute reduces RAF airdrop trials by precisely zero days. It would be nice to hear that we did indeed have some UK pre delivery airdrop work planned but I shan't hold my breath
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Experts to Help in Airbus Contract Dispute
BERLIN -- Countries planning to purchase Airbus A400M military transport planes will recruit industry experts to help them resolve a contract dispute with the European plane maker, Germany's defense ministry said Thursday.
A ministry spokesman said they will create a panel of industry experts with members from each contract country, which include France, Germany, the U.K., Spain, Belgium, Luxembourg and Turkey.
The spokesman said deputy defense ministers from those countries ended a meeting in Berlin Wednesday without deciding how to resolve the conflict over cost and production delays. They didn't set a date for a further meeting, the spokesman said.
The A400M has been dogged with development problems and is now running more than three years late, costing Airbus and its parent company, European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co. NV €7.4 billion ($11.13 billion) more than originally planned, according to a report in Tuesday's Les Echos edition, citing an audit by PriceWaterhouseCoopers.
Initially budgeted at €20 billion, the program to supply 180 aircraft to the air forces of seven NATO nations is now expected to cost €27.4 billion, including the €2.4 billion that has already been provisioned by EADS, the newspaper had reported.
Airbus said recently it expects its A400M military transporter to make its inaugural flight in the fiftieth week of 2009.
Hopes for Costly Plane Are Riding on a Test Flight
BERLIN -- Countries planning to purchase Airbus A400M military transport planes will recruit industry experts to help them resolve a contract dispute with the European plane maker, Germany's defense ministry said Thursday.
A ministry spokesman said they will create a panel of industry experts with members from each contract country, which include France, Germany, the U.K., Spain, Belgium, Luxembourg and Turkey.
The spokesman said deputy defense ministers from those countries ended a meeting in Berlin Wednesday without deciding how to resolve the conflict over cost and production delays. They didn't set a date for a further meeting, the spokesman said.
The A400M has been dogged with development problems and is now running more than three years late, costing Airbus and its parent company, European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co. NV €7.4 billion ($11.13 billion) more than originally planned, according to a report in Tuesday's Les Echos edition, citing an audit by PriceWaterhouseCoopers.
Initially budgeted at €20 billion, the program to supply 180 aircraft to the air forces of seven NATO nations is now expected to cost €27.4 billion, including the €2.4 billion that has already been provisioned by EADS, the newspaper had reported.
Airbus said recently it expects its A400M military transporter to make its inaugural flight in the fiftieth week of 2009.
Hopes for Costly Plane Are Riding on a Test Flight
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Defpro.com: ..........As confirmed by Airbus Military officials, the much-troubled A400M is scheduled to take to the skies on its first test flight late this week. If ground tests go smoothly and weather conditions are optimal, the aircraft will perform its maiden flight on Friday.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
UK confident U.S. will hand over F-35 fighter codes
LONDON (Reuters) - Britain is confident it will receive software code that controls Lockheed Martin Corp's new radar-evading F-35 fighter jet, despite the United States' insistence that it will keep the data to itself.
"The Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is progressing well and the UK currently has the JSF data needed at this stage of the programme, and is confident that in future we will continue to receive the data needed to ensure that our requirements for operational sovereignty will be met," the Ministry of Defence (MoD) said in a statement sent to Reuters on Monday.
"This remains the basis of the agreements reached with the U.S. in 2006."
The Pentagon last month said it would keep to itself the so-called source code, the key to the F-35's electronic brains, despite requests from co-development partners -- Britain, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Australia, Denmark and Norway.
Access to the technology had been publicly sought by Britain, which had threatened to scrub plans to buy as many as 138 F-35s if it were unable to maintain and upgrade its fleet without U.S. involvement and if they withheld such things as the software code.
The single-engine F-35 is in early stages of production. It is designed to escape radar detection and switch quickly between air-to-ground and air-to-air missions while still flying -- processes heavily dependent on its 8 million lines of onboard software code.
LONDON (Reuters) - Britain is confident it will receive software code that controls Lockheed Martin Corp's new radar-evading F-35 fighter jet, despite the United States' insistence that it will keep the data to itself.
"The Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is progressing well and the UK currently has the JSF data needed at this stage of the programme, and is confident that in future we will continue to receive the data needed to ensure that our requirements for operational sovereignty will be met," the Ministry of Defence (MoD) said in a statement sent to Reuters on Monday.
"This remains the basis of the agreements reached with the U.S. in 2006."
The Pentagon last month said it would keep to itself the so-called source code, the key to the F-35's electronic brains, despite requests from co-development partners -- Britain, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Australia, Denmark and Norway.
Access to the technology had been publicly sought by Britain, which had threatened to scrub plans to buy as many as 138 F-35s if it were unable to maintain and upgrade its fleet without U.S. involvement and if they withheld such things as the software code.
The single-engine F-35 is in early stages of production. It is designed to escape radar detection and switch quickly between air-to-ground and air-to-air missions while still flying -- processes heavily dependent on its 8 million lines of onboard software code.
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A400M pre-flight progress
Good videos on www.airbusmilitary.com showing taxi tests getting faster & faster, before first flight set for Friday 11th December: worth watching, if only for the sound of the engines ...
Scotteo: A pig it ain't, friend, but a blurdy good airborne cart-horse in the making!
Could call it "Percheron" - " very willing worker":
or "Clydesdale" - "the Gentle Giant":
or "Suffolk" - "easy temperament, willing worker, superb endurance" (character refs from Shire Horse breeders).
Roman and Greek gods' names for heavy lifters seem to have been bagged by rockets, but this could be a new way to designate an aerial work-horse, "Pegasus" being one of those thin-legged sprinty things under the wings ...
Scotteo: A pig it ain't, friend, but a blurdy good airborne cart-horse in the making!
Could call it "Percheron" - " very willing worker":
or "Clydesdale" - "the Gentle Giant":
or "Suffolk" - "easy temperament, willing worker, superb endurance" (character refs from Shire Horse breeders).
Roman and Greek gods' names for heavy lifters seem to have been bagged by rockets, but this could be a new way to designate an aerial work-horse, "Pegasus" being one of those thin-legged sprinty things under the wings ...
Last edited by Jig Peter; 8th Dec 2009 at 12:20. Reason: Further thought(s)
A400M Videos
re the above - this link only takes you through to the old website. We have reported the problem. The new site, where you will find the videos, is at: First Flight Channel
by the by, RTOs this afternoon. If all goes well first flight Thursday or Friday weather permitting.
by the by, RTOs this afternoon. If all goes well first flight Thursday or Friday weather permitting.
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JP, Xercules,
Thanks for these. However, however pretty it looks and however well it is going to fly when it gets a chance on Thursday or Friday or whenever, I still come back to two small points:
- Airbus doesn't want to / won't stick to the Fixed-price Contract;
- It's something the other side of FOUR YEARS LATE at a time when it may be quite useful....
So by all means let's continue with the programme as long as Airbus / EADS honour the fixed-price contract for 25 aircraft and compensates the partners for the costs of covering for the non-availability of A400M in violation of the contracted specifications. If they can do it for commercial customers with A380, then they can do it for us!
S41
PS, it looks like it would be more elegant with a fuselage stretch. Are there any plans for it a la C-130K-30?
Thanks for these. However, however pretty it looks and however well it is going to fly when it gets a chance on Thursday or Friday or whenever, I still come back to two small points:
- Airbus doesn't want to / won't stick to the Fixed-price Contract;
- It's something the other side of FOUR YEARS LATE at a time when it may be quite useful....
So by all means let's continue with the programme as long as Airbus / EADS honour the fixed-price contract for 25 aircraft and compensates the partners for the costs of covering for the non-availability of A400M in violation of the contracted specifications. If they can do it for commercial customers with A380, then they can do it for us!
S41
PS, it looks like it would be more elegant with a fuselage stretch. Are there any plans for it a la C-130K-30?
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Programm reporting
Squirrel
Have you never been at a management meeting during which people reported smooth progress all along the line, only to discover that the line being followed was the wrong one?
The software programmers at Europrop didn't realise that the standards they thought they were meeting weren't the applicable ones, and getting onto the right track took - well, time.
BTW, Avweek reckons the programme is about 18 months late - you gotta better source?
Have you never been at a management meeting during which people reported smooth progress all along the line, only to discover that the line being followed was the wrong one?
The software programmers at Europrop didn't realise that the standards they thought they were meeting weren't the applicable ones, and getting onto the right track took - well, time.
BTW, Avweek reckons the programme is about 18 months late - you gotta better source?
Last edited by Jig Peter; 8th Dec 2009 at 14:32. Reason: Typo
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Jig P,
The fact that Europrop were able to write the software to the wrong standards without someone (anyone!) in the Europrop / Airbus project management checking defies belief, frankly. It doesn't just take time, it's costing a lot of money - and one in which Europrop / Airbus expect the taxpayer to bail them out of.
Sorry, this sounds like a classic project management SNAFU, and I don't see why we should bail these companies out (and I'd have done the same to BAES on MRA4 before anyone accuses me of anti-Airbus bias).
I heard the four years on bar rumourint - so if wrong, I stand corrected. If your 18 months is right, then we should be seeing the aircraft in 2011/12 I assume - 18 months after the original 2010/11 timeframe. I'd be astonished if this was the case.
S41
The fact that Europrop were able to write the software to the wrong standards without someone (anyone!) in the Europrop / Airbus project management checking defies belief, frankly. It doesn't just take time, it's costing a lot of money - and one in which Europrop / Airbus expect the taxpayer to bail them out of.
Sorry, this sounds like a classic project management SNAFU, and I don't see why we should bail these companies out (and I'd have done the same to BAES on MRA4 before anyone accuses me of anti-Airbus bias).
I heard the four years on bar rumourint - so if wrong, I stand corrected. If your 18 months is right, then we should be seeing the aircraft in 2011/12 I assume - 18 months after the original 2010/11 timeframe. I'd be astonished if this was the case.
S41
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@ Squirrel 41
Agreed that the SNAFU is epic - like one on the US West coast that's about to get airborne in a week or so. As far as compensation goes, the taxpayers you're referring to are well spread out over the consortium (not that that makes it much easier, except that UK Gov's not been "asked" for anything - yet?). OCCAR's the management agency, as the programme is kind of structured like the Tornado & Typhoon programmes were. The "who reports what and to whom" chain's by no means simple - and since the confusion across the Pyrenees became apparent, EADS/Airbus and Europrop have been taking strong measures to sort things out. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some bruised egos in Spain, as well as among the German (?) programmers in MTU. But shouting to "hang 'em all from the nearest lamp post" (after first suing the evil-doers to the limits of their overdrafts) isn't a lot of help, though understandable.
The negotiations about penalties and such will be starting soon, and you can be sure that they will be painful. Meanwhile, I'm sure you hope (like me) that the flight tests will go well and then .... Quien sabe?
The negotiations about penalties and such will be starting soon, and you can be sure that they will be painful. Meanwhile, I'm sure you hope (like me) that the flight tests will go well and then .... Quien sabe?
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Jig P,
You're obviously much closer to this than I am - and I'm sure that the OCCAR / Airbus / Europrop mix is pretty unclear and I'm that there is plenty of bruising to ego all round.
And please don't misunderstand me, I think that the A400M will work very well in time, and that the RAF will be very happy with it when the damn thing arrives. It will also sell well internationally, given a straight fight with the C-130J.
Against this backdrop, and the long-term profitability of the support contracts, I just hope that the good people from OCCAR stick to their guns and that the contract is held to.
And yes, I'll raise a glass to the first flight.
S41
You're obviously much closer to this than I am - and I'm sure that the OCCAR / Airbus / Europrop mix is pretty unclear and I'm that there is plenty of bruising to ego all round.
And please don't misunderstand me, I think that the A400M will work very well in time, and that the RAF will be very happy with it when the damn thing arrives. It will also sell well internationally, given a straight fight with the C-130J.
Against this backdrop, and the long-term profitability of the support contracts, I just hope that the good people from OCCAR stick to their guns and that the contract is held to.
And yes, I'll raise a glass to the first flight.
S41
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A400M negotiations (and other things) ...
Equivocater:
Agreed that negotiations have been going on for long time - I meant to say "the next intergovernmental meeting"; Sorry for my omission.
I'm located near where I say, a retired but still interested spectator who reads Pprune & the press.
Squirrel 41
Just to say that computer tech has baffled Boeing, Airbus and BAE in similar ways - the 747-8 rear fuselage is the same old 747 fuselage, designed when one drew the lines on paper: the mid-section (I think) was CAD-designed on one CATIA version, while the newest bits used a later CATIA, all are "accurate" but to different tolerances. Fixing this was hard because of the 787's need for more & more engineers' time (inter alia). Belated first flight is due very soon, I read.
Airbus Hamburg and Toulouse used CATIA 5 and 6 respectively, for economic reasons, and there was a big shock as you know when mating-up time came.
BAE found that the old Comet fuselage wing roots were all slightly different (though "accurate" in their hand-built way), and taking the mould lines from one didn't mean that the new CAD-designed wing would fit the other airframes. "New wine & old bottles" comes to mind - apart from "not shooting the pianists" ...
Trying times, specially for designers used to CAD reading straight(ish!) over to CAM.
Apologies to Mods for incipient thread drift - now back to watching for more & more good news (at last !) from the Home of British Marmalade .
Agreed that negotiations have been going on for long time - I meant to say "the next intergovernmental meeting"; Sorry for my omission.
I'm located near where I say, a retired but still interested spectator who reads Pprune & the press.
Squirrel 41
Just to say that computer tech has baffled Boeing, Airbus and BAE in similar ways - the 747-8 rear fuselage is the same old 747 fuselage, designed when one drew the lines on paper: the mid-section (I think) was CAD-designed on one CATIA version, while the newest bits used a later CATIA, all are "accurate" but to different tolerances. Fixing this was hard because of the 787's need for more & more engineers' time (inter alia). Belated first flight is due very soon, I read.
Airbus Hamburg and Toulouse used CATIA 5 and 6 respectively, for economic reasons, and there was a big shock as you know when mating-up time came.
BAE found that the old Comet fuselage wing roots were all slightly different (though "accurate" in their hand-built way), and taking the mould lines from one didn't mean that the new CAD-designed wing would fit the other airframes. "New wine & old bottles" comes to mind - apart from "not shooting the pianists" ...
Trying times, specially for designers used to CAD reading straight(ish!) over to CAM.
Apologies to Mods for incipient thread drift - now back to watching for more & more good news (at last !) from the Home of British Marmalade .
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
EADS wants 5 bln euros from A400M buyers-Germany
BERLIN, Dec 9 (Reuters) - European aerospace group EADS is seeking 5 billion euros extra from the countries which have ordered the delayed Airbus A400M military transporter, a spokesman for the German defence ministry said on Wednesday. The spokesman said the German government was now assessing the request made by EADS. Earlier, a senior official said EADS had not made any additional requests for the A400M.
BERLIN, Dec 9 (Reuters) - European aerospace group EADS is seeking 5 billion euros extra from the countries which have ordered the delayed Airbus A400M military transporter, a spokesman for the German defence ministry said on Wednesday. The spokesman said the German government was now assessing the request made by EADS. Earlier, a senior official said EADS had not made any additional requests for the A400M.