Armed Forces face mass walk out over poor funding, report warns
Aging Aircraft
I've just been doing a rare spot of thinking....
The current fleet of transport aircraft dates back to the late 60's early 70's, I'm thinking of C130's and VC10's along with the Nimrod dating from a similar period. The new boy TriStar having been nailed together perhaps in the mid 70's. These aircraft are all now 30 to 40 years old.
When I took Betty's shilling in the late 70's to fly around in a 30 year old transport aircraft would have meant clambering aboard an Avro York, whilst the maritiime fleet would have been lumbering along in Sunderlands or perhaps the new fangled P2V Neptune.
madness.
It's no surprise that people are considering walking when so much more is expected from an aging fleet with no slack in the system to allow for unserviceability.
The current fleet of transport aircraft dates back to the late 60's early 70's, I'm thinking of C130's and VC10's along with the Nimrod dating from a similar period. The new boy TriStar having been nailed together perhaps in the mid 70's. These aircraft are all now 30 to 40 years old.
When I took Betty's shilling in the late 70's to fly around in a 30 year old transport aircraft would have meant clambering aboard an Avro York, whilst the maritiime fleet would have been lumbering along in Sunderlands or perhaps the new fangled P2V Neptune.
madness.It's no surprise that people are considering walking when so much more is expected from an aging fleet with no slack in the system to allow for unserviceability.
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There is a 22 page report on the subject available for download here.
NEWS - UKNDA DISCUSSION PAPER: 'OVERCOMING THE DEFENCE CRISIS' - UKNDA - The UK National Defence Association
Apologies if the link has been posted already.
Makes interesting reading.
p_j
NEWS - UKNDA DISCUSSION PAPER: 'OVERCOMING THE DEFENCE CRISIS' - UKNDA - The UK National Defence Association
Apologies if the link has been posted already.
Makes interesting reading.
p_j
Thread Starter
You're right, Roly - I had indeed forgotten Machrihanish.
Where I once landed in a Gnat and the QFI taxyed us off the RW - along a road! He'd taken the instruction "Take the next left" rather too literally!
Overnight, much beer and hilarity with 2 other Gnat occupants, then back to Valley the next day feeling slightly under the weather...........
My list was indeed of 'places where the RAF used to fly'. The fact that some of our best bases are now either prisons or occupied by Royals, Rocks or Pongos earns them a place on the list!
If Scampton can ever make its mind up, I'll remove it! Last I heard was that RAFAT will be moving to Waddo - but will still need R313. As for the Fighter Confusers, where they will be next week let alone next month is a bit of a mystery!
Where I once landed in a Gnat and the QFI taxyed us off the RW - along a road! He'd taken the instruction "Take the next left" rather too literally!
Overnight, much beer and hilarity with 2 other Gnat occupants, then back to Valley the next day feeling slightly under the weather...........
My list was indeed of 'places where the RAF used to fly'. The fact that some of our best bases are now either prisons or occupied by Royals, Rocks or Pongos earns them a place on the list!
If Scampton can ever make its mind up, I'll remove it! Last I heard was that RAFAT will be moving to Waddo - but will still need R313. As for the Fighter Confusers, where they will be next week let alone next month is a bit of a mystery!
Last edited by BEagle; 19th Sep 2008 at 15:34.
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Last One Out, Please Turn Off The.....
Stories of "everyone's leaving" are déjà vu all over again. I recall during the late 80s when the airlines were hiring anyone military who could spell aeroplane, that we were treated to the Robson report (think that's the right name - have Googled in vain to find any news of it) into retention, life, the universe and everything. The push factors were pretty much the same as they are now - you could argue that we didn't realise at the time how much worse things would get - but the outcome was something along the lines of, "You can buy yourself a nice poseurs leather jacket and....err, that's it." I clearly remember a hilarious session in the mess at Chivenor when one of their airships came along to brief us, post Robson, on how lucky we were to be flying HM's aircraft, that they'd taken careful note of what had been said and that: a) most of what we were unhappy about was as a result of our failure to understand how well looked-after we were and b) things were going to get even better thanks to the new leather jackets. The quality of the banter, heckling and barracking that the poor chap received was a joy to behold.
Bottom line, just as per 20 years ago (and yes, it was a Conservative govt under the blessèd M) there is neither the will nor the cash to fix the problem.
Bottom line, just as per 20 years ago (and yes, it was a Conservative govt under the blessèd M) there is neither the will nor the cash to fix the problem.
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Originally Posted by Ali Qadoo
The push factors were pretty much the same as they are now
But also around that era, once the Berlin Wall came down, there was scope for cuts, and it wasn't really until the late-90s when questions were asked as to whether they'd gone too far - the problem was nobody could quite define who we were planning to fight (I remember IntOs all over the place making up nonsense scenarios where Brownland was threatening Pinkland because they were allied to Orangeland blah blah blah - none of which anyone cared about). As a result - and excluding the Balkans War - the forces were erroded some more because they actually didn't have that much to do.
On 10 Sep 2001 the situation hadn't changed much, apart from Defence being even more on the back burner, right up until everyone was caught with their pants down. The Americans were experiencing cuts too, but remained big enough to shoulder the news mission(s) and we tagged along as we always have. Except we still haven't shifted politically, because unlike the Cold War, the UK isn't apparently, directly, threatened, so Defence remains low down the list.
Right now is very different to the late 80s.
With regards to what to do about it, I don't think money is just the answer. Around the run-up to GRANBY budgets were flooded with cash 'for the push' and many people saw this as an opportunity to buy things that recently introduced budgetary management wouldn't let them buy - nothing to do with GRANBY. You can only imagine the projects that people would want to run off with if we were suddenly flooded with cash! Moreover, just raising salaries as a retention measure would, as ever, not address the problems and therefore only be a temporary measure.
As I've said before, I personally feel it's not what we do, but how we do it - or perhaps how hard we make it would be a better descriptor - and money without a review would most likely just be wasted money. For example, I will eventually get onboard my 28-year old TriStar at BZZ, laden with too much issued personal kit, having put up with repetative courses, quite possibly having been given only a few weeks notice-to-move despite it being a 'routine' rotation to a long established post. My notification would be via a 'workflow notification' that I happened to stumble across - unless Admin phoned to ask why I hadn't attended a course I didn't know about, while I would most likely be the one to tell my boss of his instant manning headache for the next 5ish months.
We're in the Gulf for a long time - why aren't we getting better at it?
Last edited by dallas; 19th Sep 2008 at 16:40.
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The mention by dallas of the money that was thrown at op GRANBY reminded me of the extra cash for Urgent Operational Requirements that Darling the Incredible, Browne of the Scottish Office and Brown the Humourless keep telling us is so generous. Perhaps because the Navy haven’t had many UORs recently, I missed something quite significant; although I had heard rumours. The latest edition of Defence Director has an article on air reconnaissance and surveillance (View From The Top);
So not all of the additional funding to cover the Government’s self generated conflicts is truly additional. That may go some way to explaining the £2,000M that needs to be saved from the Equipment Budget over the next 3 years.
Apologies to those who already knew this and further apologies for the Thread drift.
The RAF’s 39 Squadron has operated two Reapers from Kandahar with the first operational flight in October last year. In April, one MQ-9 crashed. The RAF hopes to acquire a further ten, although it is not clear if this £450M acquisition will go through in its entirety. Just because it’s a UOR, does not mean it’s free from extra Treasury clawback. Reaper is one of four UORs in Op Herrick that have to be back filled from the future procurement budget, with the Treasury requiring nearly £11M to be returned annually for four years, continuing until 2011-12.
So not all of the additional funding to cover the Government’s self generated conflicts is truly additional. That may go some way to explaining the £2,000M that needs to be saved from the Equipment Budget over the next 3 years.
Apologies to those who already knew this and further apologies for the Thread drift.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Take care, that is quite dangerous in Cyprus, have another beer and let the feeling go away.
OK they might be designed to higher or safer specifications now but I made a similar point some time ago.
I flew in Ansons. They were ancient beasts about 22 years old when they were scraped. Hastings 15 years old, Lancaster, 24 when I first flew in it, Vulcans, brand new when I started and scraped 24 years or so later. Shackleton, 25 years old when I started and scrapped around 33.
F4, new, scraped about 22 years later.
Nimrod, 5 yrs old when I started and now 38 years on. VC10, 40 odd and many from the used car lot. GR1, now GR4 24?, F3 21.
OK, the Harriers are new and the USAF have rebuilt and extended air frame life too.
The current fleet of transport aircraft dates back to the late 60's early 70's, I'm thinking of C130's and VC10's along with the Nimrod dating from a similar period. The new boy TriStar having been nailed together perhaps in the mid 70's. These aircraft are all now 30 to 40 years old.
I flew in Ansons. They were ancient beasts about 22 years old when they were scraped. Hastings 15 years old, Lancaster, 24 when I first flew in it, Vulcans, brand new when I started and scraped 24 years or so later. Shackleton, 25 years old when I started and scrapped around 33.
F4, new, scraped about 22 years later.
Nimrod, 5 yrs old when I started and now 38 years on. VC10, 40 odd and many from the used car lot. GR1, now GR4 24?, F3 21.
OK, the Harriers are new and the USAF have rebuilt and extended air frame life too.
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Where we are getting it wrong......
In reply to the post by Dallas.....
Where we get it wrong, not just in the RAF but in all of the Forces, is the reliance on detached service on supposedly temporary posts.
The problem lies with the polititions (here I mean HM Treasury) not setting the establishment levels sufficient to the demands being placed upon the manpower (and womenpower) of the Forces.
What is forgotten is that the services rely on continuous recruitment of new people - it can't let its "workforce" get top-heavy with old "salts" much as it would like to retain their experience. Consequently training of new recruits, be they sailors, soldiers and airmen is a constant. The effect is that c. 30% of the total strength is either under training or giving instruction. The remainder is available in theory "to play". But with troop rotations being an essential part of sustained ops as opposed to a surge, this only leaves c. 30% of the total force available to serve in the front-line. The other 10% are either out of play due to injury, leave, re-settlement and the need to attend advanced courses, staff College etc. to make them suitable for promotion.
With "civillianisation" of second and third echelon establishments in flying training, maintenance, engineering, catering etc. we just don't have the "depth" we used to be able to rely on. What is left is only the "can-do" attitude and resourcefulness of our people who IMHO are papering over cracks in the system to the long-term detriment of the organisations they represent. Our Service chiefs need to learn to say NO more often!
I think it was Douglas Bader who when CO of 242 Sqn rfused to declare the sqn operational until he had a full inventory of tools and spares for his sqn. Having 18 new aircraft with pilots was not enough - and he had the luxury of new a/c. All we have now are long past their pension points....but no leaders willing to speak out at the folly of carrying on in this way.
Until the situation radically improves there is no way that I would want my children (now 18 and 17) to serve in any of the UK armed forces, and I am sure I am not alone. I did 10 years (and 130 days in the FI) but saw the writing on the wall when "Options for Change" spelled massively reduced career prospects with stations being closed almost everywhere.
Just my 2p worth.
MB
Where we get it wrong, not just in the RAF but in all of the Forces, is the reliance on detached service on supposedly temporary posts.
The problem lies with the polititions (here I mean HM Treasury) not setting the establishment levels sufficient to the demands being placed upon the manpower (and womenpower) of the Forces.
What is forgotten is that the services rely on continuous recruitment of new people - it can't let its "workforce" get top-heavy with old "salts" much as it would like to retain their experience. Consequently training of new recruits, be they sailors, soldiers and airmen is a constant. The effect is that c. 30% of the total strength is either under training or giving instruction. The remainder is available in theory "to play". But with troop rotations being an essential part of sustained ops as opposed to a surge, this only leaves c. 30% of the total force available to serve in the front-line. The other 10% are either out of play due to injury, leave, re-settlement and the need to attend advanced courses, staff College etc. to make them suitable for promotion.
With "civillianisation" of second and third echelon establishments in flying training, maintenance, engineering, catering etc. we just don't have the "depth" we used to be able to rely on. What is left is only the "can-do" attitude and resourcefulness of our people who IMHO are papering over cracks in the system to the long-term detriment of the organisations they represent. Our Service chiefs need to learn to say NO more often!
I think it was Douglas Bader who when CO of 242 Sqn rfused to declare the sqn operational until he had a full inventory of tools and spares for his sqn. Having 18 new aircraft with pilots was not enough - and he had the luxury of new a/c. All we have now are long past their pension points....but no leaders willing to speak out at the folly of carrying on in this way.
Until the situation radically improves there is no way that I would want my children (now 18 and 17) to serve in any of the UK armed forces, and I am sure I am not alone. I did 10 years (and 130 days in the FI) but saw the writing on the wall when "Options for Change" spelled massively reduced career prospects with stations being closed almost everywhere.
Just my 2p worth.
MB
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Is the Royal Air Force really running with 60% of its GD(P) posts manned? Even with a training system running full throttle you'd be hard pressed to pull back from that one. At best you could only maintain the levels if you don't retain the experience to train the new pilots.
What's with the rumour the the Services are looking at using legal action to prevent anyone they need from leaving? Lawyer I know is rubbing his hands over this one, he can't wait. The £ signs are flashing in his eyes, win-win is all he can mutter between dribbles. Yesterday he took delivery of 2000 laminated advertisement posters he's looking to distribute. Told him to look at PPRuNe. Probably only makes sense to disband the RAF in the near future I'd have thought if things are that bad.
What's with the rumour the the Services are looking at using legal action to prevent anyone they need from leaving? Lawyer I know is rubbing his hands over this one, he can't wait. The £ signs are flashing in his eyes, win-win is all he can mutter between dribbles. Yesterday he took delivery of 2000 laminated advertisement posters he's looking to distribute. Told him to look at PPRuNe. Probably only makes sense to disband the RAF in the near future I'd have thought if things are that bad.
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A little ditty posted to the RAF Boy Entrant Association (RAFBEA) email list:
I'm the last man left in the Air Force,
I've an office in MOD
and a copy of Queens Regulations
which only apply to me.
I can post myself to Leuchars
and detach me from there to Kinloss,
or send me on courses to Innsworth,
then cancel the lot - I'm the boss.
I'm the last man left in the Air Force,
but the great Parliamentary brains
neglected, when cancelling people,
to sell off the Stations and planes.
The result is, my inventory bulges
with KD and camp-stools and Quarters,
plus a signed book of speeches by Trenchard
which I keep to impress the reporters.
I'm the last man left in the Air Force,
I suppose you imagine it's great
to be master of all you survey, but
I tell you it's difficult, mate.
I inspected three units last Thursday,
As C-in-C ( Acting ) of Strike,
then I swept half the runway at Laarbruch
and repaired Saxa Vord's station bike.
I'm the last man left in the Air Force,
it's not doing a lot for my health.
Unit sports days are frankly exhausting
when the Victor Ludorum's oneself.
On guest nights the Mess is so lonely,
there are times when I wish I was able
to pass the port to the chap next to me,
without seeing it fall off the table.
I'm the last man left in the Air Force,
my wife says I'm never at home,
when I'm not flying Hercs, I'm at Manston,
laying gallons and gallons of foam,
or I'm in my Marine Craft off Plymouth,
shooting flares at the crowds on the Ho,
or I'm Orderly Corporal at Luqa.
It's an interesting life, but all go.
I'm the last man left in the Air Force.
I'm ADC to the Queen,
I'm Duty Clerk at St. Mawgan,
I'm the RAF rugby team.
Tomorrow I'm painting a guardroom
and air-testing numerous planes.
The day after that I'm for London,
to preach at St. Clement Danes.
I'm the last man left in the Air force
and I'm due to go out before long.
There's been no talk of any replacement
and I won't even let me sign on.
I hope to enjoy my retirement.
I've put up a fairly good show,
and I won't cut myself off entirely.
There are always reunions, you know.
I'm the last man left in the Air Force,
I've an office in MOD
and a copy of Queens Regulations
which only apply to me.
I can post myself to Leuchars
and detach me from there to Kinloss,
or send me on courses to Innsworth,
then cancel the lot - I'm the boss.
I'm the last man left in the Air Force,
but the great Parliamentary brains
neglected, when cancelling people,
to sell off the Stations and planes.
The result is, my inventory bulges
with KD and camp-stools and Quarters,
plus a signed book of speeches by Trenchard
which I keep to impress the reporters.
I'm the last man left in the Air Force,
I suppose you imagine it's great
to be master of all you survey, but
I tell you it's difficult, mate.
I inspected three units last Thursday,
As C-in-C ( Acting ) of Strike,
then I swept half the runway at Laarbruch
and repaired Saxa Vord's station bike.
I'm the last man left in the Air Force,
it's not doing a lot for my health.
Unit sports days are frankly exhausting
when the Victor Ludorum's oneself.
On guest nights the Mess is so lonely,
there are times when I wish I was able
to pass the port to the chap next to me,
without seeing it fall off the table.
I'm the last man left in the Air Force,
my wife says I'm never at home,
when I'm not flying Hercs, I'm at Manston,
laying gallons and gallons of foam,
or I'm in my Marine Craft off Plymouth,
shooting flares at the crowds on the Ho,
or I'm Orderly Corporal at Luqa.
It's an interesting life, but all go.
I'm the last man left in the Air Force.
I'm ADC to the Queen,
I'm Duty Clerk at St. Mawgan,
I'm the RAF rugby team.
Tomorrow I'm painting a guardroom
and air-testing numerous planes.
The day after that I'm for London,
to preach at St. Clement Danes.
I'm the last man left in the Air force
and I'm due to go out before long.
There's been no talk of any replacement
and I won't even let me sign on.
I hope to enjoy my retirement.
I've put up a fairly good show,
and I won't cut myself off entirely.
There are always reunions, you know.
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The author of "Last man in the Air Force" was P.I.Fisher, a Master Signaller on 51 Sqd at Wyton. He is now retired and works under the pen name Peter Wyton. The poem was first published in RAF Wyton's station magazine in the early 70's and, subsequently, in a book of his poems titled Even The Beggars Have Pearls.
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I think it safe to say that PVR rates closely mirror the economic cycle. When times are good, people walk. When the economy takes a downturn, people tend to stay put.
The fundamentals of military life (eg the nomadic lifestyle and the sometimes stifling discipline) tend not change. These immutable factors are generally what decide people to jump ship. It is just a question of timing.
The fact "Last Man in the Air Force" was written 35 years ago, suggests that despondency with 'stretch' in the Service is neither new, nor is it a threat to the long-term survival of the RAF.
The fundamentals of military life (eg the nomadic lifestyle and the sometimes stifling discipline) tend not change. These immutable factors are generally what decide people to jump ship. It is just a question of timing.
The fact "Last Man in the Air Force" was written 35 years ago, suggests that despondency with 'stretch' in the Service is neither new, nor is it a threat to the long-term survival of the RAF.
Last edited by Broadsword***; 5th Oct 2008 at 06:56.
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I suspect that the economic Armageddon that is on the horizon (we haven't seen anything yet) will play in to the RAFs hands nicely thank you.
The flip-side is this will be temporary and the moment things pick up people will once more seek better employment.
It would be nice if CAS wasn't relying on a recession to do what decent management and leadership would achieve.
The flip-side is this will be temporary and the moment things pick up people will once more seek better employment.
It would be nice if CAS wasn't relying on a recession to do what decent management and leadership would achieve.
Farfrom,
The economy will pick up, and unless you already have a large mortgage, are seeking employment in the city, or are tied to the UK, there will still be plenty of jobs around.
However, having spent the entire wealth of the nation playing smash and grab with banking stock, El Gordo is going to have to trim costs somewhere....... ah, defence. Politically easier than health, education or the crumbling transport system.
Why do you think expectations of victory in Afghanistan are being toned down and talks held with the Taliban?
Apparently security cannot be secured without their participation in the process and this has only come to light as the government is a bit strapped for cash.
Expect the manning chaos to get worse, expect any positive news to be announced several times over, but expect things to get worse, far worse, far worse than we can imagine type worse.
Things are pretty crap now, and with a static, or even reduced slice of the budget, they are only going to get worse.
My advice to those sitting on the fence right now is to look at life in both camps not right now, but in 12-18 months.
The economy will pick up, and unless you already have a large mortgage, are seeking employment in the city, or are tied to the UK, there will still be plenty of jobs around.
However, having spent the entire wealth of the nation playing smash and grab with banking stock, El Gordo is going to have to trim costs somewhere....... ah, defence. Politically easier than health, education or the crumbling transport system.
Why do you think expectations of victory in Afghanistan are being toned down and talks held with the Taliban?
Apparently security cannot be secured without their participation in the process and this has only come to light as the government is a bit strapped for cash.
Expect the manning chaos to get worse, expect any positive news to be announced several times over, but expect things to get worse, far worse, far worse than we can imagine type worse.
Things are pretty crap now, and with a static, or even reduced slice of the budget, they are only going to get worse.
My advice to those sitting on the fence right now is to look at life in both camps not right now, but in 12-18 months.
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OK I'm not in the services and nor am I one for politics, to me any party can be as good/bad/indifferent as the rest.
When people talk about who cut this and who cut that I always think, why didnt the other parties reinstate it. OK I can understand that cant always be the case but some are so long term they could be.
That said I could be talking cr@p giving my first paragraph and have prepared the frame suit and bunker accordingly.
Edited to say that I fully support all the armed services, thence looking at this thread, and have been dismayed that cutbacks still are happening when they should have stopped years or even a decade or more ago.
When people talk about who cut this and who cut that I always think, why didnt the other parties reinstate it. OK I can understand that cant always be the case but some are so long term they could be.
That said I could be talking cr@p giving my first paragraph and have prepared the frame suit and bunker accordingly.
Edited to say that I fully support all the armed services, thence looking at this thread, and have been dismayed that cutbacks still are happening when they should have stopped years or even a decade or more ago.
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BEagle,
Re your post#25.
I was told many years ago by "someone who was present" that the cancellation of TSR2 followed a Cabinet meeting at which the then SofS Defence (Mr Healy) informed the PM that, whilst under test, TSR 2 had suffered a major structural failure of its wings.
This information (although incomplete) was quite correct - what was left out of this information was that the airframe on which this occurred was the airframe that was being tested to destruction.
Re your post#25.
I was told many years ago by "someone who was present" that the cancellation of TSR2 followed a Cabinet meeting at which the then SofS Defence (Mr Healy) informed the PM that, whilst under test, TSR 2 had suffered a major structural failure of its wings.
This information (although incomplete) was quite correct - what was left out of this information was that the airframe on which this occurred was the airframe that was being tested to destruction.
