Typhoon cuts

[hulahoop7]

Tranche3

"but the appropriate level of funding for all three services, not the robbing Peter to pay Paul approach we've seen for the last decade."

Precisely, which is why I and most of the other CVF fanboys on here think the RAF should get the full allocation. Those machines have got to last a long time, and do a lot of work. The MOD / government has basically been very fortunate in that for the last decade it has been able live off a huge cold war legacy in equipment. That equipment is now being burned through on operations. The only thing which is going to prevent a standstill is A LOT more cash. It is precisely like the railways when Labour came to power. The Tories ran that system down because it was an easy area to save cash. So upgrades were postponed, and equipment run on. Suddenly the whole system is literally a train wreck, and you’ve got to spend huge amounts just to stand still, and more to claw your way back up the hill again.

[Jetex Jim]

If there was ever a damning inditement, it's this one.

"One former defence offical says: "The MoD today has the weakest collection of ministers, chiefs of staff and civilian leaders since the 1970s." "

[seakinger]

'So, logically, we now find ourselves with four AD squadrons (if we include XI) to deal with a far greater set of challenges than the five squadrons deemed necessary to meet a much lower threat level.'

Yeah. Thats called overstretch- just like the rest of the military on current operations... I feel your pain brothers. Really.

[Archimedes]

No pain here, Seakinger (since you were quoting me) - we'd be beyond overstretch and at ''broken beyond repair' if I were to be found doing AD (or anything else involving flying one of Her Majesty's aeroplanes)...

[PPRuNeUser0172]

I don't understand what the fuss is about

Yes we ordered 232 donkey's years ago but we don't need that many now. Simple really. If you replaced every Jag and F3 1 for1 you would only need about 150, not to mention the increased capability/reliablity blah, therefore probably requiring less for the same capability.

A bit of a none story surely. Why buy jets we don't need when the rest of defence is bleating for money, and we keep getting told "people first" so the money has to come from somewhere.

robbing peter to pay paul again but so what, better that than 100 surplus eurofighter at Ł65M a pop.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

This one of those occasions when it's worth reading the writings of Jackonicko (Srl 8). The Government will, no doubt, try any trick possible to wriggle out of the Agreement. This could ensure that Britain will no longer be trusted to be part of future collaborative projects.

Bearing in mind that this is a life of type buy, do you really believe that we are receiving too many? No machines in reserve for attrition or development? This socialist at heart Government has placed itself in a difficult financial position and there are many on here arguing for an easy get out. Don't; Defence should be a Nation's first priority.

[pr00ne]

Dirty Sanchez,

There's a LOT you don't understand..........................

Cancelling Tranche 3 will not save a penny thanks to extremely stringent contract penalty clauses introduced by the UK some years ago to ensure that Germany did not cut it's commitment. It would also result in a painful renegotiation of national workshare.

Replacing the Jag and F3 fleet is hardly relevant to todays front line. The existing 2 frontline squadrons will probably only be increased by another three to give 5 squadrons as the original "Jag/F3 replacement" whereas Tranche 3 and the rest will be useful to replace part of the GR4 force along with the JSF as there is a stated intent to only have a FJ front line composed of these 2 types.

[CirrusF]

Just a question here - the Typhoon and New Carrier bid processes must have been mostly concurrent. How much coordination and mutual influencing was there between the specification of the two programmes?

It seems to me that we have ended up with two programmes which are threatened with cuts because of their costs, and have non-optimised flexibility and inter-operability between the two aircraft types.

Would not a single joint RAF/RN Rafaele strike force not have been simpler and cheaper, giving savings in aircrew and programme costs, also with the advantage of better interoperability with French navy? I have read that Rafaele is possibly a more ground-attack oriented multi-role aircraft than Typhoon too.

I'm not pretending that I know the answer and am not knocking Typhoon in any way (excellent at what it was designed for) - I'm just interested to know whether the above scenario was fully studied and then discounted? Or did inter-service fighting end play a part in the situation we are now in?

[Jackonicko]

To sustain a fleet of 137 jets (7 squadrons, an OCU and an OEU) over the planned (30 year?) life of the jet you need 232 aircraft.

There's attrition, maintenance reserves, etc to take account of. So you need many more than will be in frontline service at once.

Typhoon is replacing F3 (165 procured) and Jag (200 procured) and the RAF intends to keep the aircraft in service longer.

There simply aren't '150 spare jets'

[Squirrel 41]

prOOne and JN are quite right: the contract is designed to stop the Germans walking away in the early 90s when they were going broke integrating the former East Germany. This lead to the contemporaneous rebranding of the programme as Eurofighter 2000, which IIRC, was made cheaper for the Germans by reducing the spec of their EW fit amongst other things.

So, what do we do? To keep the jet in service through to OSD will require 232 for a 7 Sqn frontline.

Q1. Can we reduce the buy?

A1. Sure, by reducing the number of frontline Sqns or bringing forward the OSD. Is this sensible? No, probably not.

Q2. Can we spend less money in the next five years when the EP is maxed out?
A2. Certainly, by flogging the jet to other countries and coming back to the UK buy later on. Does this save money in the long run? No, probably not, but it may get us more T3 jets than we would otherwise have ended up with.

The real question is whether the Saudi and other export jets are counted against the UK's 232 - and if someone out there in Ppruneland can provide the definitive answer, that'd be great.

S41

[Al R]

The Royal Air Force, which had ordered 144 Eurofighters in two earlier contracts, is committed to buying another 88 as part of its membership of the Eurofighter consortium with Germany, Italy and Spain.

I am being naive I guess. But if we stand to lose (say) 2 or 3 a year and not even considering combat losses or replacing tired aeroplanes.. in a little over a decade or so won't we be down to stupidly low levels with hardly any reserves?

[Jackonicko]

Definitively:

Austria took two RAF line positions in Tranche 1. Saudi Arabia will take 24 in Tranche 2. All are being replaced, directly, one for one, so they don't count against the UK commitment.

[Squirrel 41]

JN

Thanks for that - so where do the other 48 Saudi jets come in? And are these 25 replacement jets coming in T2 or T3? Or do we simply have no idea?

Cheers

S41

[Jackonicko]

The replacements are in Tranche 2 (Tranche 3 not being signed yet).

The remaining 48 Saudi Typhoons will be "built" in Saudi Arabia from quadrinational sub assemblies which are additional to the T2 numbers.