Field Condions V Incidental Expenses?
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Brain Potter
"he simply wants to improve his own lot."
And quite right too. Those who lay down and take all the sh1t thrown at them deserve exactly that!
It was drilled into me when I joined up in '63; Do not grumble because others get better treatment than you. Try doing something to make life better for me!
Then there was the GLO on 230 Sqn about 1978/9 who told me that Rate 1's were a 'Fixed Wing disease'. He thought that we should all pack sleeping bags and sleep either in or under the Puma when staying away from base for any reason.
He was a prat of the first order.
'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'
Brain,
You have clearly "speed read" over one of my previous posts. If the Welfare Package is implemented then LOA stops because the welfare package provides papers, telephone connectivity (not free), internet access, television etc.
IE is not payable because Field Conditions have been declared, this means amongst other things food is free. The employers responsibility is to feed the troops, not to feed them and give them change left over for their own use. Field conditions equally apply if living under canvas on SPTA eating ORP.
Puma det is not at the Army locations for the simple reason of logistics, there is not enough bedspaces or hangarage. The flight safety call is always a valid point but is also becoming used far too often and not always appropriately.
As I said earlier, be careful of what you wish for. PAYD.
You have clearly "speed read" over one of my previous posts. If the Welfare Package is implemented then LOA stops because the welfare package provides papers, telephone connectivity (not free), internet access, television etc.
IE is not payable because Field Conditions have been declared, this means amongst other things food is free. The employers responsibility is to feed the troops, not to feed them and give them change left over for their own use. Field conditions equally apply if living under canvas on SPTA eating ORP.
Puma det is not at the Army locations for the simple reason of logistics, there is not enough bedspaces or hangarage. The flight safety call is always a valid point but is also becoming used far too often and not always appropriately.
As I said earlier, be careful of what you wish for. PAYD.
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Sloppy Link,
Okay I understand now, it's either IE, LOA or a welfare package - but only the latter 2 can apply in this case due to declaration of field conditions. I believe that those are the cold facts sought by pumaengineer.
I do think that all this "dry your eyes", "man-up" and "should've worked harder" stuff is naive and plays straight into the hands of those that wish to erode everyone's various entitlements on grounds of cost. It does seem rather strange that on-base at D-M is regarded as field conditions and it must seem to those involved that this declaration has been made on the basis of saving money.
Okay I understand now, it's either IE, LOA or a welfare package - but only the latter 2 can apply in this case due to declaration of field conditions. I believe that those are the cold facts sought by pumaengineer.
I do think that all this "dry your eyes", "man-up" and "should've worked harder" stuff is naive and plays straight into the hands of those that wish to erode everyone's various entitlements on grounds of cost. It does seem rather strange that on-base at D-M is regarded as field conditions and it must seem to those involved that this declaration has been made on the basis of saving money.
A decision made on the basis of saving money. Please do not tell me you are surprised by this. The cheapest option is the welfare package so in some respects I suppose we should be grateful.
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No I'm not surprised but, if whoever took this decision could be pinned down, I would bet that cost is not the reason they would offer.
We have already seen a fair amount of the attitude that says "you've got better accommodation, so you can just grin and bear all other shaftings"
With such logic, the MoD could declare field conditions at Nellis for Red Flag or within 1 km of the Georgetown Suites and save few more quid.
We have already seen a fair amount of the attitude that says "you've got better accommodation, so you can just grin and bear all other shaftings"
With such logic, the MoD could declare field conditions at Nellis for Red Flag or within 1 km of the Georgetown Suites and save few more quid.
Last edited by Brain Potter; 21st Aug 2008 at 17:19.
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Contact the JSP Pol Branch
Just to add confusion to the mix boys.
If you feel seen off why not contact the SP Pol branch via e-mail, the alternate being the particular chapter in questions' sponsor. More likely than not he is a civil serpent with little knowledge of how we now do business and could well be living in the dark ages. These guys are not infallible. From my own humble experience they will give you the rationale behind the decision and if you have a serious grievance its their responsibility to investigate and come back with a answer as to why the rule is that way - or maybe even change the policy!!!
The days of 'ours is not to question why but rather to do or die' are well gone. I once helped produce a JAP that I know a lot of you will be familiar with. No easy task. We questioned every old adage the forces had and rewrote the book cover to cover in order for it to work in a tri-Service dimension. I learnt never to accept the bolloeaux spouted quote ' we're doing it this way because we always have done'.
Forward with the revolution...
If you feel seen off why not contact the SP Pol branch via e-mail, the alternate being the particular chapter in questions' sponsor. More likely than not he is a civil serpent with little knowledge of how we now do business and could well be living in the dark ages. These guys are not infallible. From my own humble experience they will give you the rationale behind the decision and if you have a serious grievance its their responsibility to investigate and come back with a answer as to why the rule is that way - or maybe even change the policy!!!
The days of 'ours is not to question why but rather to do or die' are well gone. I once helped produce a JAP that I know a lot of you will be familiar with. No easy task. We questioned every old adage the forces had and rewrote the book cover to cover in order for it to work in a tri-Service dimension. I learnt never to accept the bolloeaux spouted quote ' we're doing it this way because we always have done'.
Forward with the revolution...
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Irish Tempest
The days of 'ours is not to question why but rather to do or die' are well gone. I once helped produce a JAP that I know a lot of you will be familiar with. No easy task. We questioned every old adage the forces had and rewrote the book cover to cover in order for it to work in a tri-Service dimension. I learnt never to accept the bolloeaux spouted quote ' we're doing it this way because we always have done'.
I understand what you say, but did anyone ever question why the old APs contained what they did? Old 0rders were there because of lessons learned the hard way, sometimes with blood! The problem now is that with the passing of time, no one knows why the orders were there in the first place. That does not mean that the old orders are no longer valid.
The new JAPs that I have read seem to leave a lot to the judgement of people who have little or no experience. I fear that lessons are again to be learned the hard way.
'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'
I'm so glad I was in Multi-Engine Command .................
And I'm even gladder that I am no longer in Multi-Engine Command.
I now get an air-conditioned room all to myself, with a bath and shower, and mini bar and porcelain crapper and internet connection et-bloody-cetera.
Y'all have fun now, y'hear?
And I'm even gladder that I am no longer in Multi-Engine Command.
I now get an air-conditioned room all to myself, with a bath and shower, and mini bar and porcelain crapper and internet connection et-bloody-cetera.
Y'all have fun now, y'hear?
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Does anybody know where to find out what is regarded as "field conditions".
Can they just be "declared" or are there set procedures or guidelines in place that need to be satisfied in order to deam a detachment as "field conditions"?
A JSP ref would be appreciated, if you know of it.
Can they just be "declared" or are there set procedures or guidelines in place that need to be satisfied in order to deam a detachment as "field conditions"?
A JSP ref would be appreciated, if you know of it.
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Philrigger
Appreciate where you are coming from wrt lessons learned (sorry identified) - However the JAP was essential with the amount of 'Joint' ways of working. The main driver being JFH. It was simple the RAF would only do something if the book said so, the RN did anything as long the book told you not to and the Army... well they were just glad someone had a serious look at the way they were doing business.
When we examined issues we found a lot of legacy things from the Cold War era (and WW2) when we all carried nooks and everything was ultra safe. E.g. why do we bond our VC-10's, Tristars and other transport aircraft when the Easyjet 737 at Stansted doesn't (standfast refueling)? Warrants asking? An aircraft becomes 'neutral' 1.5 seconds after touching down through the wheels). Why can any RN pilot use a 5M when authorised when his oppos in the RAF can't - only after they have had a laying on of hands by the Station Cdr and become a 'Test Pilot'... blatantly wrong. (but used a means of promotion within RAF Flying Club circles) - I was told that by a snr aircrew officer.
We (you may say unfortunately) are in the realms of empowerment, and as long as the person is suitable trained, qualified and experienced, why not?
The aircrew JSP 550 series (was... and I suspect still is a bit of a cluster due to lack if effort on the part of DASC to co-ord) - personal opinion.
IT
Appreciate where you are coming from wrt lessons learned (sorry identified) - However the JAP was essential with the amount of 'Joint' ways of working. The main driver being JFH. It was simple the RAF would only do something if the book said so, the RN did anything as long the book told you not to and the Army... well they were just glad someone had a serious look at the way they were doing business.
When we examined issues we found a lot of legacy things from the Cold War era (and WW2) when we all carried nooks and everything was ultra safe. E.g. why do we bond our VC-10's, Tristars and other transport aircraft when the Easyjet 737 at Stansted doesn't (standfast refueling)? Warrants asking? An aircraft becomes 'neutral' 1.5 seconds after touching down through the wheels). Why can any RN pilot use a 5M when authorised when his oppos in the RAF can't - only after they have had a laying on of hands by the Station Cdr and become a 'Test Pilot'... blatantly wrong. (but used a means of promotion within RAF Flying Club circles) - I was told that by a snr aircrew officer.
We (you may say unfortunately) are in the realms of empowerment, and as long as the person is suitable trained, qualified and experienced, why not?
The aircrew JSP 550 series (was... and I suspect still is a bit of a cluster due to lack if effort on the part of DASC to co-ord) - personal opinion.
IT
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Having been on a few of the Crimson Eagle (CE) exercises (the exercise which is in question) I can relate to the question “of what are you entitled to?”
But there is a however!
Being entitled to LSA and LOA for the exercise gives you an allowance, “too have a bit of the good life on the DET”. No one says that you must go down town every night or eat in the best restaurants (got the taxi ride down to 15 dollars from the main gate at DMAB to 6th with a pick up guaranteed and had a good time) the accommodation was good, and to nurse the hangover the next day the base offered lots of escape choices – the immaculate golf club for one.
Another thing in the favour! Is the forces exchange rate of around 2 to 1 for the dollar, again you are on a win - win situation. So anything you buy is better than you would get as a mere tourist. Oh and by the way isn’t everything on base American tax exempt?
It was very tempting to go of on one and start ranting about – how the majority of the Puma DET got to the exercise! / Oh we are so precious!! , flying BA ect, but I think that will be saved for a personnel interview with the JHC Comd on return.
The training that CE offers to Aircrew / Ground Crew / and foot soldiers alike is second to none. My only fear is that this exercise will be folded due to expense. In the light of every penny counts does mean exactly that.
If you get a chance to train on CE for the WAR as apposed to a WAR please come along and see the best training you will ever receive.
I think the question of IA was answered. However dull the “fast jet” job was - may be you are better suited to a..... “but I am entitled to……
But there is a however!
Being entitled to LSA and LOA for the exercise gives you an allowance, “too have a bit of the good life on the DET”. No one says that you must go down town every night or eat in the best restaurants (got the taxi ride down to 15 dollars from the main gate at DMAB to 6th with a pick up guaranteed and had a good time) the accommodation was good, and to nurse the hangover the next day the base offered lots of escape choices – the immaculate golf club for one.
Another thing in the favour! Is the forces exchange rate of around 2 to 1 for the dollar, again you are on a win - win situation. So anything you buy is better than you would get as a mere tourist. Oh and by the way isn’t everything on base American tax exempt?
It was very tempting to go of on one and start ranting about – how the majority of the Puma DET got to the exercise! / Oh we are so precious!! , flying BA ect, but I think that will be saved for a personnel interview with the JHC Comd on return.
The training that CE offers to Aircrew / Ground Crew / and foot soldiers alike is second to none. My only fear is that this exercise will be folded due to expense. In the light of every penny counts does mean exactly that.
If you get a chance to train on CE for the WAR as apposed to a WAR please come along and see the best training you will ever receive.
I think the question of IA was answered. However dull the “fast jet” job was - may be you are better suited to a..... “but I am entitled to……
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So many points.......
So many points have been made that I could reply to, but most of my comments would probably be taken in the vein that they were meant and cause friction so I'll stick to pumaengineer's original point........
I have been on a fast jet sqn detached to DM, on one occasion we recieved 'on-base' rates of about $7 a day because the mess was open and on another we recieved the normal USA city rate of $50 a day because it had been shut down by health and safety!! My first point? Don't compare your det to a previous det, whether by your sqn or another, to the same location because things change!
As it happens, I was on a similar det years ago at Cherry Point, where we stayed in the Holiday Inn, but were bused onto camp to eat at the MCSU and since we were a Germany Sqn, no money not even LOA (German LOA was better anyway and we kept that). BUT at least we were not in tents on the airfield like the C130 boys. My second point, make the best of what you've got and enjoy your proximity to the Uni district in Tucson! Failing that try "Cow Pony" on a Sunday, if its still open.
I have been on a fast jet sqn detached to DM, on one occasion we recieved 'on-base' rates of about $7 a day because the mess was open and on another we recieved the normal USA city rate of $50 a day because it had been shut down by health and safety!! My first point? Don't compare your det to a previous det, whether by your sqn or another, to the same location because things change!
As it happens, I was on a similar det years ago at Cherry Point, where we stayed in the Holiday Inn, but were bused onto camp to eat at the MCSU and since we were a Germany Sqn, no money not even LOA (German LOA was better anyway and we kept that). BUT at least we were not in tents on the airfield like the C130 boys. My second point, make the best of what you've got and enjoy your proximity to the Uni district in Tucson! Failing that try "Cow Pony" on a Sunday, if its still open.
Thread Starter
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***UPDATE***
Just thought I would give an update to the story. Since our return last year a brave airman took it upon himself to buck the trend of putting up and shutting up and not "Dry your eyes sweetheart, if you don't have a sense of humour......
" as suggested by Dirty Sanchez and challenged the field conditions ruling. He redressed Cdr JHC...and won!!
So we are now allowed to claim IE for each day, our LOA becomes full rate, and eventually we will get our missed meal allowances.
My point is that if he had read this thread the advice would be to just get on with it. Fair play to him to have the bottle to go right to the top (why didn't I do it? Because I might have a career left!) So after being challenged, someone looked at the whole situation and decided that the penny pinching methods employed were incorrect and are now making ammends.
The vast majority on this board are of the mentality that SH, groundcrew, non FJ are there to do the menial non headlline grabbing jobs and should not be seen or heard. To you I ask that you consider the description of the Military Aircrew Forum. And try to think outside your box with the very narrow field of view!!!
To the few that offered words of assistance and encouragement I applaud you.
If there were more of you this board would be a much more pleasant experience
Just thought I would give an update to the story. Since our return last year a brave airman took it upon himself to buck the trend of putting up and shutting up and not "Dry your eyes sweetheart, if you don't have a sense of humour......
" as suggested by Dirty Sanchez and challenged the field conditions ruling. He redressed Cdr JHC...and won!!So we are now allowed to claim IE for each day, our LOA becomes full rate, and eventually we will get our missed meal allowances.
My point is that if he had read this thread the advice would be to just get on with it. Fair play to him to have the bottle to go right to the top (why didn't I do it? Because I might have a career left!) So after being challenged, someone looked at the whole situation and decided that the penny pinching methods employed were incorrect and are now making ammends.
The vast majority on this board are of the mentality that SH, groundcrew, non FJ are there to do the menial non headlline grabbing jobs and should not be seen or heard. To you I ask that you consider the description of the Military Aircrew Forum. And try to think outside your box with the very narrow field of view!!!
To the few that offered words of assistance and encouragement I applaud you.
If there were more of you this board would be a much more pleasant experience
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Would this be the same young man who is now having to pay back money as he would have been better off, in real-financial terms, if he had just of gotten on with it?
Will have to re-read the Admirals response next week to get the specifics.
Will have to re-read the Admirals response next week to get the specifics.
This will be fun to watch, by my reckoning at any one time there are about 250 personnel per day on CE. There has been CE06, CE07, CE08a, CE08b and CE09 is now on. Each det is about 8 weeks long or so lets call it 60 days for ease of maths.......CEx5x60x250x£10IE alone = £750,000 of which £1,800 is owed to me! Then there is the difference between Ex rates of LoA and Temporary Duty Rates to add to the confusion coupled with changes in the rates and the FFR.
Of course JHC will ensure that all are treated equally and track down those personnel (an easy task now we have a centralised computer system that can search for this data at the press of a button) that are owed money as the rules have been interpreted differently.
Oh sorry, there I was in my parrallel universe again where Joint means that, opposed to this universe where Joint only applies when it suits.
Hurrumph. It will all change when I am Comd JHC
Of course JHC will ensure that all are treated equally and track down those personnel (an easy task now we have a centralised computer system that can search for this data at the press of a button) that are owed money as the rules have been interpreted differently.
Oh sorry, there I was in my parrallel universe again where Joint means that, opposed to this universe where Joint only applies when it suits.
Hurrumph. It will all change when I am Comd JHC
Last edited by Sloppy Link; 10th Mar 2009 at 20:41. Reason: spool chacker
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Mr B said... "I'm so glad I was in Multi-Engine Command .................
And I'm even gladder that I am no longer in Multi-Engine Command.
I now get an air-conditioned room all to myself, with a bath and shower, and mini bar and porcelain crapper and internet connection et-bloody-cetera.
Y'all have fun now, y'hear?"
Can't help noticing old chap that 'mates' don't feature highly in your list of above goodies; is that why you're still clinging onto a bit of cyber-esprit de corps on this forum, ha-ha!
Sorry if this interrupted you while you were trying to bang one out thinking of the hosties....
Still, you've always got a nice set of black windscreens to stare out of for 11 hours tomorrow night, havent you?
Y'all have fun too, bud
And I'm even gladder that I am no longer in Multi-Engine Command.
I now get an air-conditioned room all to myself, with a bath and shower, and mini bar and porcelain crapper and internet connection et-bloody-cetera.
Y'all have fun now, y'hear?
"Can't help noticing old chap that 'mates' don't feature highly in your list of above goodies; is that why you're still clinging onto a bit of cyber-esprit de corps on this forum, ha-ha!
Sorry if this interrupted you while you were trying to bang one out thinking of the hosties....
Still, you've always got a nice set of black windscreens to stare out of for 11 hours tomorrow night, havent you?
Y'all have fun too, bud
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Yeah with the removal of any expenses we have found people just dont wish to take advantage of courses and even dets its easier to say no than go and spend months sorting out wages through JPA.
They have done well to remove all good from travelling in the Military now and its just another nail in the ever leaving thousands who cant be arsed. We were promised travel sport all the good things about Military life and only travel is to the desert, sport no chance as there is no manpower to cover , expeds deffo no chance as the squadron has not enough cover and crappy dets where you have to buy your own food.
KIT steps of soapbox ....
They have done well to remove all good from travelling in the Military now and its just another nail in the ever leaving thousands who cant be arsed. We were promised travel sport all the good things about Military life and only travel is to the desert, sport no chance as there is no manpower to cover , expeds deffo no chance as the squadron has not enough cover and crappy dets where you have to buy your own food.
KIT steps of soapbox ....
