Crab SAR crews (and cabs?) in Afghan?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crab SAR crews (and cabs?) in Afghan?
RAF sends air rescue crews to Afghanistan - Times Online
Just been started on arrse:
British Army Rumour Service > > Forums > > The Serious Bit > > Current Affairs, News and Analysis > > RAF sends air rescue helicopters to Afghanistan
One crew per station to go on holiday sans bucket and spade... not so sure but the Times thinks the cabs are going too - Can Gordon afford a re-spray? I've got half a tin of green in the garage...
Just been started on arrse:
British Army Rumour Service > > Forums > > The Serious Bit > > Current Affairs, News and Analysis > > RAF sends air rescue helicopters to Afghanistan
One crew per station to go on holiday sans bucket and spade... not so sure but the Times thinks the cabs are going too - Can Gordon afford a re-spray? I've got half a tin of green in the garage...
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Witty,
Are you surprised? The word in Main Building is to cut and to make savings - but at the same time British servicemen and women are being killed.
Bit of a quandry for the politicians, treasury and defence brass - decisions decisions hey.
Isn't it sad that there should be a decsion to make - if ever there was a time not to cut military defence spending and if ever there was a time to invest in more Support Helicopters and replace those that were ageing and old. If ever there was a time to invest in more aircrew and retain more aircrew.
Then now is the time - there should not be this annual farce of each Service coughing up options for the treasury to decide on what to cut.
Unless that is they all know something that we don't and that is that UK Foreign policy is going to be re-aligned with expectations that match the reality of what is really availible.
I look forward to welcoming the SAR crews out here, undoubtedley they will bring some very valuable skillsets, and hopefully we will be able to help them out with those that are missing from their current role/employment. I also hope that they get a bit of high DA handling action in as well - Boulmer and Chiv on a UK summers day isn't quite the same.
But if we look back on Prune and look at the discussions about 'scraping the barrel' etc - well the UK MoD are now at the stage of using absolutely everything and anything. If there is anything else left after this (apart from DHFS and Training establishments) then will someone please let me know.
Are you surprised? The word in Main Building is to cut and to make savings - but at the same time British servicemen and women are being killed.
Bit of a quandry for the politicians, treasury and defence brass - decisions decisions hey.
Isn't it sad that there should be a decsion to make - if ever there was a time not to cut military defence spending and if ever there was a time to invest in more Support Helicopters and replace those that were ageing and old. If ever there was a time to invest in more aircrew and retain more aircrew.
Then now is the time - there should not be this annual farce of each Service coughing up options for the treasury to decide on what to cut.
Unless that is they all know something that we don't and that is that UK Foreign policy is going to be re-aligned with expectations that match the reality of what is really availible.
I look forward to welcoming the SAR crews out here, undoubtedley they will bring some very valuable skillsets, and hopefully we will be able to help them out with those that are missing from their current role/employment. I also hope that they get a bit of high DA handling action in as well - Boulmer and Chiv on a UK summers day isn't quite the same.
But if we look back on Prune and look at the discussions about 'scraping the barrel' etc - well the UK MoD are now at the stage of using absolutely everything and anything. If there is anything else left after this (apart from DHFS and Training establishments) then will someone please let me know.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Henley, Oxfordshire
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Times doesnt think the helicopters are going too, that was a pisspoor headline put on by a sub whose first language is presumably not English and was amended at midnight when I saw it on the web. The new headline is the one at the top of the first post, ie just a fifth of the crews.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BBC: "Search Crews To Go To Afghanistan"
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MM, I am not surprised as such and agree with all you say; in fact I am pleased in a strange way - we do need more crews and pulling them from SAR is about the one way (short of compulsory call up of those who have already left 
) that Joe Civi will take any notice - it's about the only thing likely to affect him or his mates.
Pulling blokes out of the training system would be a dangerous move indeed - using SAR crews is bad enough and I think we are already feeding on ourselves but the enevitable constriction and reduction of fresh blood to the front line is an even more unsustainable situation, the more so when retention is largely realised by ROS alone.
For what it's worth, here's my bit on arrse:
//Isn't it fortunate that we have a military SAR force (read an in-great-desperation reserve of trained and skilled crews) from which to pinch some chaps... leap ahead beyond the much vaunted privatisation of SAR in 2012 and what would happen then? Would we be able to bolster the front line in extremis in such a manner? No.
I'm sure the brass would claim those crews post 2012 are permanantly released to front line and so thus this situation would not arise... but we all know that is arrse, afterall, surely the point of having reserves of strength (even if you don't call them that) is that you dont plan on using them and you maintain their availablity... no-one can know when you might be overstreached and in dire need of that support... ok, ok, so 39,000 RAF, 34,000 RN and 102,000 Army, their wives, wives' tennis partners, wives' tennis partners' friends and the whole of the English speaking world (bar ZanuLabour) have known and forseen the need for some time but you catch my drift.
Will this cause a re-think of SAR privatisation?
Will the sweeping privitisation of all manner of UK based jobs be halted or reversed because they realise the utility of having spare blokes in the system?
Will Gordon Brown admit that a better way to honour the memory and courage of fallen soldiers, sailors and airmen he talks about in his recent book would be to fully support IN ALL RESPECTS their successors who too fight and die for each other in foreign fields?
If true this is an incredible, if admittedly necessary, move. In my book this kind of thing is for the approach of WWIII - there is no way that we should be in this state over Afghan and Iraq; another indicator, as if it were needed, that we have past the elastic limit. //
S_W / F_G
) that Joe Civi will take any notice - it's about the only thing likely to affect him or his mates. Pulling blokes out of the training system would be a dangerous move indeed - using SAR crews is bad enough and I think we are already feeding on ourselves but the enevitable constriction and reduction of fresh blood to the front line is an even more unsustainable situation, the more so when retention is largely realised by ROS alone.
For what it's worth, here's my bit on arrse:
//Isn't it fortunate that we have a military SAR force (read an in-great-desperation reserve of trained and skilled crews) from which to pinch some chaps... leap ahead beyond the much vaunted privatisation of SAR in 2012 and what would happen then? Would we be able to bolster the front line in extremis in such a manner? No.
I'm sure the brass would claim those crews post 2012 are permanantly released to front line and so thus this situation would not arise... but we all know that is arrse, afterall, surely the point of having reserves of strength (even if you don't call them that) is that you dont plan on using them and you maintain their availablity... no-one can know when you might be overstreached and in dire need of that support... ok, ok, so 39,000 RAF, 34,000 RN and 102,000 Army, their wives, wives' tennis partners, wives' tennis partners' friends and the whole of the English speaking world (bar ZanuLabour) have known and forseen the need for some time but you catch my drift.
Will this cause a re-think of SAR privatisation?
Will the sweeping privitisation of all manner of UK based jobs be halted or reversed because they realise the utility of having spare blokes in the system?
Will Gordon Brown admit that a better way to honour the memory and courage of fallen soldiers, sailors and airmen he talks about in his recent book would be to fully support IN ALL RESPECTS their successors who too fight and die for each other in foreign fields?
If true this is an incredible, if admittedly necessary, move. In my book this kind of thing is for the approach of WWIII - there is no way that we should be in this state over Afghan and Iraq; another indicator, as if it were needed, that we have past the elastic limit. //
S_W / F_G
Guest
Posts: n/a
If there is anything else left after this (apart from DHFS and Training establishments) then will someone please let me know.
I would also be interested to see how the MOD propose to maintain a permanent 4 watch 24/7 at the SAR units.
It will, of course, only be a short term fix, maybe enough to get to the next election. Swiss Des has two jobs, after all, so why not everyone else?
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Animo,
Agreed, the MERT bit is old news - but the media create the impression by insuating pilots as well (and I must be honest, I have heard nothing about aircrew, so agree with you words).
So, if there are not pilots involved then both the Times and BBC may like a phone call from the MoD Press office to ensure clarity and stop both public and military types spooling up.
But, whether to fill MERT crews or fill yellow fun buses - the comment remains - the jam is being spread extremely thin - whether a front ender or down the back (remove one part of the team and the overall system becomes fragile).
Agreed, the MERT bit is old news - but the media create the impression by insuating pilots as well (and I must be honest, I have heard nothing about aircrew, so agree with you words).
So, if there are not pilots involved then both the Times and BBC may like a phone call from the MoD Press office to ensure clarity and stop both public and military types spooling up.
But, whether to fill MERT crews or fill yellow fun buses - the comment remains - the jam is being spread extremely thin - whether a front ender or down the back (remove one part of the team and the overall system becomes fragile).
This is all smoke and mirrors, The SAR force is undermanned as is most of the rest of the Rotary fleets, cutting from 5 to 4 crews per flight is simply adjusting the manpower from where it should be to roughly where it was headed anyway due to natural wastage and an inability of 203 to get any serviceable cabs to train anyone.
There won't be any yellow helis in afg and not many SAR crews will go SH, most of them are too happy in the pipe and slipper mode. (I don't blame em)
The only question I have is 4 crews to man 1 on call SAR stby cab? Surely this is overmanning? 1 day in 4 on shift??
There won't be any yellow helis in afg and not many SAR crews will go SH, most of them are too happy in the pipe and slipper mode. (I don't blame em)
The only question I have is 4 crews to man 1 on call SAR stby cab? Surely this is overmanning? 1 day in 4 on shift??
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The real world
Posts: 446
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If this is true then we really are near the end! the SAR boys won't like this and I think you will see a lot of Pvr's winging their way through JPA cyberspacer.
Were just stealing from peter to pay paul and it has to stop
, the slippery slope just got steeper, the mire at the bottom just got deeper!
Were just stealing from peter to pay paul and it has to stop
, the slippery slope just got steeper, the mire at the bottom just got deeper!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
Age: 60
Posts: 2,051
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes
on
6 Posts
We use 4 crews to maintain 24/7 police cover. This does NOT mean one day in four working for us. A sensible pattern is 2x12hr days followed by 2x12hr nights then 4 off. 48 hrs in eight days is close to a 'normal' working week. Even if the SAR crews do 24hr shifts you have to take into account leave / courses / sickness etc etc. We ship in floater pilots to cover this in civvie world. Where do military 'floaters' come from?? Four to five crews seems like a sensible option for 24hr ops.
PS. You should see how many crews an airline has per airframe....
PS. You should see how many crews an airline has per airframe....
Agreed - I believe to conform to current civilian regulations you actually need 5 crews for a 24/7 SAR flight working 24 hour shifts.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: England
Posts: 488
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only question I have is 4 crews to man 1 on call SAR stby cab? Surely this is overmanning? 1 day in 4 on shift??
Does this mean there won't always be a fresh second crew to call-in and the second cab/relief crew may only be available if there happens to be suitably rested crew at home?
As an aside, does any one else think that the term "Crab" is becoming over-used and somewhat tiresome? As a term of derision, it is fair enough in the appropriate context, but it's appearance in these kind of topics seems to set a unnecessarily confrontational tone that doesn't reflect the content of the debate.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: England
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“As an aside, does any one else think that the term "Crab" is becoming over-used and somewhat tiresome?”
I agree. I think you’ll find it’s mainly fishheads and pongos that use the expression.
I agree. I think you’ll find it’s mainly fishheads and pongos that use the expression.
