RAF to keep all their E-3Ds but...
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What a difference a few years can make.
WTN - I too remember getting anything from 350 to 600 hours and anything from 80 to 140 days away per year during my first tours and it was pretty much all done on Ops. Yes it was a very different kind of Op and for the majority, it was nowhere near tents or sand (unless you wanted to go to the beach). However, it was still alot of flying and alot of time away from home. I know it is nowhere near what most are going through now but was it really such a bad thing?
The crews and the jets still worked their wotsits off and when not doing the Op thing we still had to support other platforms doing their trg, either at home or overseas, so that they would be ready for the Op thing when their turn came.
I am also well aware that the TAL/HELO fleets were heavily involved as well as some fast jet fleets as well. I spoke to most when they wanted a flight following or whatever.
This thread seems to point the finger at those of us from within as if we have a choice! I was told directly during a recent talk with a 'big boss' that we have had our chance i.e. we have done our Ops flying in the past. I wish we could be involved in the decision making process as most of us realise that we do need to get involved in some way and we would love to get hold of that pot of cash that is reserved to buy the spare parts necessary and pay for the manpower required to fix a capable platform.
And that is the main crux is it not? we have a capability waiting in the wings ready for the next 'party in the sand'. If we do not keep that capability serviceable and the crews prepared (via the myriad of exercises available), what will happen when we need to send the little pink boddies beyond ground radar coverage. For that I mean the fast jets to get the ground prepared for the army before the TAL/Helo can ingress and resupply with 'big brother' giving the watchful eye.
I used to think that we had a force and leaders capable of forward thinking and that we could actually predict more than just a few months to a couple of years ahead. PERHAPS NOT?
Did we not have a similar situation in the thirties when a threat was emerging within Europe that we discounted until it was almost too late. God bless those thinkers of RJ Mitchell, Barnes Wallace; Sir Robert Watson-Watt, A F Wilkins and H E Wimperis along with Sir Henry Tizard (last 4 RADAR although invented by a German).
I agree that the current is vitally important and that funding should be given to ensure those dealing with the current have everything they need.
However, has anybody else been watching what has been going on elsewhere in the world whilst the UK & US deal with Iragistan? Putin flexing, dinner-jacket sabre rattling, Cristina Fernandez of Argentina laying claim to South Atlantic oil reserves and a very interesting article on tv this morning about China's brand new 'secret' underground nuclear bomb proof sub pens. What do they want those for I wonder???
All fine so long as we all remain friends.........BUT!
WTN - I too remember getting anything from 350 to 600 hours and anything from 80 to 140 days away per year during my first tours and it was pretty much all done on Ops. Yes it was a very different kind of Op and for the majority, it was nowhere near tents or sand (unless you wanted to go to the beach). However, it was still alot of flying and alot of time away from home. I know it is nowhere near what most are going through now but was it really such a bad thing?
The crews and the jets still worked their wotsits off and when not doing the Op thing we still had to support other platforms doing their trg, either at home or overseas, so that they would be ready for the Op thing when their turn came.
I am also well aware that the TAL/HELO fleets were heavily involved as well as some fast jet fleets as well. I spoke to most when they wanted a flight following or whatever.
This thread seems to point the finger at those of us from within as if we have a choice! I was told directly during a recent talk with a 'big boss' that we have had our chance i.e. we have done our Ops flying in the past. I wish we could be involved in the decision making process as most of us realise that we do need to get involved in some way and we would love to get hold of that pot of cash that is reserved to buy the spare parts necessary and pay for the manpower required to fix a capable platform.
And that is the main crux is it not? we have a capability waiting in the wings ready for the next 'party in the sand'. If we do not keep that capability serviceable and the crews prepared (via the myriad of exercises available), what will happen when we need to send the little pink boddies beyond ground radar coverage. For that I mean the fast jets to get the ground prepared for the army before the TAL/Helo can ingress and resupply with 'big brother' giving the watchful eye.
I used to think that we had a force and leaders capable of forward thinking and that we could actually predict more than just a few months to a couple of years ahead. PERHAPS NOT?
Did we not have a similar situation in the thirties when a threat was emerging within Europe that we discounted until it was almost too late. God bless those thinkers of RJ Mitchell, Barnes Wallace; Sir Robert Watson-Watt, A F Wilkins and H E Wimperis along with Sir Henry Tizard (last 4 RADAR although invented by a German).
I agree that the current is vitally important and that funding should be given to ensure those dealing with the current have everything they need.
However, has anybody else been watching what has been going on elsewhere in the world whilst the UK & US deal with Iragistan? Putin flexing, dinner-jacket sabre rattling, Cristina Fernandez of Argentina laying claim to South Atlantic oil reserves and a very interesting article on tv this morning about China's brand new 'secret' underground nuclear bomb proof sub pens. What do they want those for I wonder???
All fine so long as we all remain friends.........BUT!
Last edited by Sentry Agitator; 4th Aug 2008 at 20:28. Reason: spolling
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I've got a Traveller - you are right of course about the swanning around with nice dets - times are good on the fleet in that sense. Nevertheless there is a frustration in being left on the sidelines, particularly for a growing proportion of the force that haven't been on ops yet. I guess it is a very different experience to (most of the) rest of the RAF. However, these things rarely last.
Mothballing the fleet is unlikely to help solve any of the real problems or inbalances in the defence budget. The shortage of RW crews will not be solved by binning the Sentry force.
Mothballing the fleet is unlikely to help solve any of the real problems or inbalances in the defence budget. The shortage of RW crews will not be solved by binning the Sentry force.
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Although away in the sandpit at the moment, it is sad to see that things are just as bad back at Waddo with serviceability.
It is an extrenely frustrating time for all concerned.
I hope there is a change of fortune soon, I suspect we might be caught with our pants down if the sh*t really hit the fan!
It is an extrenely frustrating time for all concerned.
I hope there is a change of fortune soon, I suspect we might be caught with our pants down if the sh*t really hit the fan!
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The problem for any outsider is trying to figure out whether the decision is really the "best"/cheapest - or whether it turns out to be the cheapest because of the PFI deal with Northrop (2005 - 20-year, £529 million, support and maintenance contract - "availability-based deal").
I am sure that the Northrop deal includes lots of penalty clauses for reductions in scope or even the smallest changes.
So how would anyone ever find out as any query would be treated as "commercially confidential" ?
.
I am sure that the Northrop deal includes lots of penalty clauses for reductions in scope or even the smallest changes.
So how would anyone ever find out as any query would be treated as "commercially confidential" ?
.
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Sonicstomp my comments were no way a dig at the E3 force in general , I know like everyone else we ned to keep all assets airborne just in case of something kicking off and it probably will. My point is we know there is not a huge bucket of money and things are having to be put aside to help fund other things , ideal world we could have everything flying but until we get a government in thats going to spend money then some will suffer more than others. We all on the same side we just against the biggest enemy of the lot
The government
The government
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Keepittidy - Fair one, govt needs to be more honest about its level of spending vs commitments..time for a Strategic Defence Review anyone?
(a proper one and not another white paper)
(a proper one and not another white paper)
LJ Rant On
Plenty of work coming for an airborne radar platform in the offing..
'Nuclear bomber base' raises fears of a new Cuban crisis - Times Online
Especially when the "oh, so short sighted" shut Saxa Vord to start this place...
Saxa Vord Resort - Welcome | Saxa Vord Resort, Unst, Shetland
I know that there are airborne assets in Afg that are crying out for AWACS picture and re-bro that mobile ground radar sites cannot provide - especially when we push further into the mountains. So stop your griping, get a bloody life and give the E-3D boys/girls a break (they were probably flying over Afg long before you in 2001/2!). I'd sooner see us with more Omni-Air style PFI AT vice Tristar or "merc" helo-lift than lose this force-multiplying invaluable capability to some of the assets in the current theatre. Still they may well be joining you if SACEUR has his wishes (so you can stop the back-biting!), see here...
NATO commander seeks AWACS planes for Afghanistan | Top News | Reuters
For those that can't be bothered for a link the headline is
LJ Rant Off
PS Yes, at the moment they never bloody turn up with "sorry we're U/S", but one hopes that more priority will be given to their eng function if they go on ops
Plenty of work coming for an airborne radar platform in the offing..
'Nuclear bomber base' raises fears of a new Cuban crisis - Times Online
Especially when the "oh, so short sighted" shut Saxa Vord to start this place...
Saxa Vord Resort - Welcome | Saxa Vord Resort, Unst, Shetland
I know that there are airborne assets in Afg that are crying out for AWACS picture and re-bro that mobile ground radar sites cannot provide - especially when we push further into the mountains. So stop your griping, get a bloody life and give the E-3D boys/girls a break (they were probably flying over Afg long before you in 2001/2!). I'd sooner see us with more Omni-Air style PFI AT vice Tristar or "merc" helo-lift than lose this force-multiplying invaluable capability to some of the assets in the current theatre. Still they may well be joining you if SACEUR has his wishes (so you can stop the back-biting!), see here...
NATO commander seeks AWACS planes for Afghanistan | Top News | Reuters
For those that can't be bothered for a link the headline is
NATO's commander in Afghanistan has asked the alliance to send surveillance planes to help the battle against insurgents there, an official said on Thursday...COM-ISAF has requested it in a letter to SACEUR, a NATO official said of a request by U.S. General David McKiernan to NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe General John Craddock.
PS Yes, at the moment they never bloody turn up with "sorry we're U/S", but one hopes that more priority will be given to their eng function if they go on ops
