RAAF Flight Screening Programme
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First up, from what I can make out, DFR is a joke. Some of you have been lucky to get into flight selection rather rapidly but spare a though for those of us who were cleared and have spent over 7 months waiting (and still waiting) to go down to Tamworth due to incompetence. My case manager basically kept putting off her applicants processing for several months so that someone else could pick up the slack when she went on mpaid maternity leave. I personally chased up my paperwork every week for 2 months with the same response. "It's on my desk, sorry I haven't sent it, I'll do it now." I heard that phrase parroted back to me every week for over 2 months. Then she went on maternity leave and my paperwork was still not sent.
Now I realise 43 is the cut off age, but, 40 is really pushing it. Assuming he gets a clearance to be a pilot, by the time he's finished training he's extremely close to 50 years of age.
Some of the higher scoring student pilot graduates' from both BFTS and 2FTS have included students' in the 37-45 year old age bracket. A number of PLT and ACO students' on my IOC were in their very late 30's. All of them had more tenacity, common sense, dedication, commitment & leadership ability than most of the whinging "Gen-Y's" on course - without exception !!
Defence is trying to force people out, not get them in, though you wouldn't know it with all the money being spent on recruitment drives. If A Current Affairs is anything to go by, there are over 400 different types of jobs in the Defence force that need filling which from my understanding is BS. Defence does not have the money nor the resources to keep up with the amount of people wanting to join due to GFC.
... 18 months in the recruitment process, despite my qualifications, life experience, multi-lingual abilities and professional athletic achievements leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth when kids straight out of school and old men are taking less than 4 months to go from You session to flight selection.
ADF selection of "kids straight out of school" is a fact of life. It's no secret: "kids" are easier to mould into the ADF psyche, than say older applicants' who possess significant life experience/s. "Kids" also apparently learn at a faster rate. The peak learning age is allegedly around 25-27 (if you believe the 'dumb bell' theory that is ! I don't.).
Based upon your previous comments, I assume your definition of "old men" encompasses those in the 40 plus demographic ? If that's the case, I can assure you that 40 is NOT old ! The ADF has some very encouraging statistics, which show excellent results in military flying training from these "old men". These guys get through on their own merit, aptitude, abilities and attitude - just like everyone else !
There is a lot of other stuff I'd like to bring up but right now I just can't be bothered. I'm extremely disappointed in the state of our defence force recruitment process and it is starting to make me second guess my wishes to join the Australian defence force.
It you're adopting this attitude now, how do you expect to cope with the rigours associated with Officer training and military flying training ?
I understand you're justifiably disappointed with the ADF recruiting process; however, you really need to take a long hard look at whether the ADF is right for you ? Based on some of your 'attitudes,' I feel you may struggle - particularly during the Officer training phases.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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I'm extremely disappointed in the state of our defence force recruitment process and it is starting to make me second guess my wishes to join the Australian defence force.
Why should "professional athletic achievements" give you some 'edge' or priority in the recruiting process ? Means nothing mate - trust me !
Forty (40) is 'really pushing it' huh ? Is that a professional opinion ? What's your basis for this comment ?
Yes.
17 years of military flying instruction. What's yours?
Some of the higher scoring student pilot graduates' from both BFTS and 2FTS have included students' in the 37-45 year old age bracket. A number of PLT and ACO students' on my IOC were in their very late 30's. All of them had more tenacity, common sense, dedication, commitment & leadership ability than most of the whinging "Gen-Y's" on course - without exception !!
Some of the higher scoring student pilot graduates' from both BFTS and 2FTS have included students' in the 37-45 year old age bracket.
ADF selection of "kids straight out of school" is a fact of life. It's no secret: "kids" are easier to mould into the ADF psyche, than say older applicants' who possess significant life experience/s. "Kids" also apparently learn at a faster rate. The peak learning age is allegedly around 25-27 (if you believe the 'dumb bell' theory that is ! I don't.).
Join Date: Jul 2009
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In my humble opinion, Everybody's different. Regardless of age, If you want it bad enough and are truly dedicated to the task of putting in the hard work, dedication and "blood,sweat and tears", you can get it. I know, I know, sounds like a cliche, but it's a cliche simply because it's true.
I'm 32 now and know personally that when I was 20, I didn't have enough of those above attributes to pass something like ADF pilot's course. I feel now is the best time for me to accept the challenge. But as I said, that's me, eveybody's different. This maybe the complete opposite case for some 20 year olds or some 40 year olds.
I had a great run in the selection process until after successful FSP where things started to unravel before my eyes but I'm still here and want this even more despite the disappointments. The Hunger grows.
I believe that if you're letting a few setbacks and/or frustrations along the way make you think twice, you don't really want it enough. And that goes for all things in life.
Chris
I'm 32 now and know personally that when I was 20, I didn't have enough of those above attributes to pass something like ADF pilot's course. I feel now is the best time for me to accept the challenge. But as I said, that's me, eveybody's different. This maybe the complete opposite case for some 20 year olds or some 40 year olds.
I had a great run in the selection process until after successful FSP where things started to unravel before my eyes but I'm still here and want this even more despite the disappointments. The Hunger grows.
I believe that if you're letting a few setbacks and/or frustrations along the way make you think twice, you don't really want it enough. And that goes for all things in life.
Chris
Last edited by cj0203; 16th Jan 2011 at 06:37.
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Defence recruiting was civilianized some years ago. Speaks for itself.
17 years of military flying instruction. What's yours?
The older guys certainly do demonstrate tenacity, and they generally accept criticism in a much more mature fashion then their "Gen Y' counterparts. However in my experience the older guys have difficulty learning at the required rate. Put simply it's really a case of "old dogs - new tricks". Don't get me wrong; I really enjoy flying with the older blokes, but in my experience they do not learn as quickly as the young guys. Additionally they come with baggage which can make their management quite a handful.
A number of my friends' who have undertaken PLT CSE as older age students', have found the CSE no more or less challenging than their younger peers and indeed, have at times - struggled with certain parts of the syllabus - much to the same degree as their younger CSE members. Though, all have adapted to and ultimately, enjoyed the unique training methodology.
They too, have all agreed that their rates of learning do not appear to have deteriorated with age.
I agree too, that there are some older students who bring with them, "baggage" - which is only to be expected if they are married and have a family. To that end, I know of two guys who have DOR'd because of family issues. It's a real shame, but that's life !
Consequently we waste much time, money and effort proving what was common knowledge in "the old days".
It will be interesting to view future recruitment trends of 'older' applicants for all aircrew positions and their success/failure rate statistics whilst on course.
The underlying basis of my comments is based on the opinion that I don't believe 'djwarchild' has the professional expertise or qualifications to give a credible assessment of the training risks associated with the recruitment of older applicants on PLT CSE. This is clearly the domain of OSB and those whose charter it is to make such 'risk assessments' and possible subsequent offers for TRG.
Nor do I believe DFR are prioritising or favouring "kids" out of school or older applicant's, over his application alone. On the surface, it seems he has struck an element of "inefficiency" in the system and that is regrettable. However, there are methods by which one can attempt to remedy the situation. Spitting the dummy and chucking a tantrum on a public forum site are clearly not effective methods of redress ! Just my opinion.
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Spitting the dummy and chucking a tantrum on a public forum site are clearly not effective methods of redress !
Not as painful as chucking tantrums via redress of grievance either.
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As ex NCO aircrew C130 Loadmaster, I would like to share some results from me observing pilots who have graduated from flying school, but who have a long way to go before they can consider their learning curve has come up on line.
The ADF does not care whether you are an ace pilot or one who is working hard to learn They are looking for attitude and a desire to learn.
Many would be pilots fail because they have not learnt that at least in the Air Force they are looking for leaders first and I suspect that many fail because of lack of this ability and the desire to lead.
Some of the tantrums I have seen on this forum show a lack of maturity, and lack of being able to work through problems to enable missions to be completed. Did you ever stop to think that the reason, even though you may have passed through the first stage, that your application, is that the Air Force is suspects some short coming and is doing this, so you can prove by your actions whether you have it or not.
Someone who is good at problem solving may in actual fact , shine above someone who can fly well, but cannot show leadership and maturity Your methods of over coming what you see as short comings in the system, could make or break what other wise could have been a good application.
Remember well that just because you want it, the government is under no obligation to give you a job and if it does it is on their terms and not yours.
Good pilots are a plenty, and unless you want to spend your career as a senior FLTLT, then you will need to change.
I remember well a very junior pilot coming the bounce with a senior flight engineer, in front of the CO. I watched the W/O conduct himself with great dignity until the time it was for take off.
Out said the CO sit on the bunk. ENG hope in the right seat. ENG did the take off and hand flew the air plane to Laverton, with the CO taking control only on finals.
We had a flight deck debriefing where the CO did the talking and he said. Right now you are not very much use to us, you put the flaps up and down and the same with the gear, and we let you talk on the radio. If you are lucky you will make the grade but you have much to learn. I have been in the Air Force for 25 years and I still do not know as much as the W/O does.
The W/O was one of the simulator instructors and actually had more simulator hours as a pilot than the new co pilot.
The lesson is to use the power of reason and be flexable enough to try another tack if things are not going the way that the like.
For all you know this lass could be doing what she is told, with a bunch of selectors looking over he shoulders for your reaction, and you are sitting there like a a school boy spitting the dummy. You need to change direction or the system will catch you out, think about how I have this problem how am I going to overcome this problem as my efforts right now are good good enough.
I wish you all the best and hope that maybe I have opened your eyes on how to overcome the problem. Show maturity and leadership and you will quickly move up the line.
All the best Col
The ADF does not care whether you are an ace pilot or one who is working hard to learn They are looking for attitude and a desire to learn.
Many would be pilots fail because they have not learnt that at least in the Air Force they are looking for leaders first and I suspect that many fail because of lack of this ability and the desire to lead.
Some of the tantrums I have seen on this forum show a lack of maturity, and lack of being able to work through problems to enable missions to be completed. Did you ever stop to think that the reason, even though you may have passed through the first stage, that your application, is that the Air Force is suspects some short coming and is doing this, so you can prove by your actions whether you have it or not.
Someone who is good at problem solving may in actual fact , shine above someone who can fly well, but cannot show leadership and maturity Your methods of over coming what you see as short comings in the system, could make or break what other wise could have been a good application.
Remember well that just because you want it, the government is under no obligation to give you a job and if it does it is on their terms and not yours.
Good pilots are a plenty, and unless you want to spend your career as a senior FLTLT, then you will need to change.
I remember well a very junior pilot coming the bounce with a senior flight engineer, in front of the CO. I watched the W/O conduct himself with great dignity until the time it was for take off.
Out said the CO sit on the bunk. ENG hope in the right seat. ENG did the take off and hand flew the air plane to Laverton, with the CO taking control only on finals.
We had a flight deck debriefing where the CO did the talking and he said. Right now you are not very much use to us, you put the flaps up and down and the same with the gear, and we let you talk on the radio. If you are lucky you will make the grade but you have much to learn. I have been in the Air Force for 25 years and I still do not know as much as the W/O does.
The W/O was one of the simulator instructors and actually had more simulator hours as a pilot than the new co pilot.
The lesson is to use the power of reason and be flexable enough to try another tack if things are not going the way that the like.
For all you know this lass could be doing what she is told, with a bunch of selectors looking over he shoulders for your reaction, and you are sitting there like a a school boy spitting the dummy. You need to change direction or the system will catch you out, think about how I have this problem how am I going to overcome this problem as my efforts right now are good good enough.
I wish you all the best and hope that maybe I have opened your eyes on how to overcome the problem. Show maturity and leadership and you will quickly move up the line.
All the best Col
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In todays RAAF the C.P. would have whined to the unit equity officer, resulting in the good WOFF being reprimanded and the CO being counselled by the OC.
This sort of sh!t is almost encouraged in todays ADF.
This sort of sh!t is almost encouraged in todays ADF.
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Caiety, VNE
Thank you for your responses. I just dint have the chance to make an early reply. I had not considered gliding, so I am greatful for the suggestion. A little research showed a much more reasonable expenditure to get some air time, through gliders. I am planning to do this sometime next month. Any suggestions on good gliding schools in and around Melbourne, from those who have tried it before is greatly appreciated.
Its good to know that the PSA takes time to send those confirmation letters out. Ill keep that in mind when my file would be sent off yet again in a couple of months if things go to plan.
Finestkind,
My file has been recalled from the PSA. I was thinking that with many actually having issues tracking down their files while it was at the PSA, the chance of them actually having a record of mine after it has been recalled struck to me as being very slim.
PM's most welcome, and Ill keep my progress updated here.
Cheers
Septerra
Thank you for your responses. I just dint have the chance to make an early reply. I had not considered gliding, so I am greatful for the suggestion. A little research showed a much more reasonable expenditure to get some air time, through gliders. I am planning to do this sometime next month. Any suggestions on good gliding schools in and around Melbourne, from those who have tried it before is greatly appreciated.
Its good to know that the PSA takes time to send those confirmation letters out. Ill keep that in mind when my file would be sent off yet again in a couple of months if things go to plan.
Finestkind,
My file has been recalled from the PSA. I was thinking that with many actually having issues tracking down their files while it was at the PSA, the chance of them actually having a record of mine after it has been recalled struck to me as being very slim.
PM's most welcome, and Ill keep my progress updated here.
Cheers
Septerra
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Haven’t posted in a while so I thought I’d comment on a recently posted rant
Just like anything in life, you have to be prepared to make sacrifices and jump through some pretty horrible hoops. Becoming a pilot in the ADF is no different and can be argued that the sacrifices are greater and the hoops much harder. And I’m only talking about the recruitment process... It gets harder once you are in.
The recruitment process isn't perfect. From recent experience on the inside of DFR I can tell you that there is scope for things to fall through the cracks despite a fairly good database system which includes a strong tracking tool for applicants. The problem ultimately is user error and in some extreme cases laziness. But as an applicant (and this goes for any job in the ADF) you have certain rights and privileges that unfortunately most of you are not aware of. If you feel you are being unfairly treated, your first point of call should be your "case manager", and then through the DFR chain until you reach the Senior Military recruitment officer. If after all that work you don't seem to get anywhere, then take your issues to your local MP and subsequently move up the chain to the Minister.
MINDEF generally does not like hearing stories from applicants being unfairly treated and will always come down hard on the recruitment team involved if there is any evidence of laziness or poor management. He has this power through the contract.
At this point I would like to emphasise that this is not useful if you've sat a test and had been denied a position. i.e. attending a YOU session and not making the grade for pilot. Unfortunately the testing process in DFR is fairly waterproof with a large backing in psychological theories.
I'd also like to emphasise a few points made previously along the leadership line. If you are the squeaky wheel, you will get the grease. It shows leadership and a commitment to the recruitment process. I won't say that subsequent training in the ADF is easier than going through DFR, but once you've made that hurdle, the psychological boost you receive makes a lot of other challenges in the immediate future, a lot easier to bear.
Don't give up, and don't lose hope! The rewards of an aviation career in the ADF far outweigh the relatively short amount of pain you could potentially experience in the recruitment process
Just like anything in life, you have to be prepared to make sacrifices and jump through some pretty horrible hoops. Becoming a pilot in the ADF is no different and can be argued that the sacrifices are greater and the hoops much harder. And I’m only talking about the recruitment process... It gets harder once you are in.
The recruitment process isn't perfect. From recent experience on the inside of DFR I can tell you that there is scope for things to fall through the cracks despite a fairly good database system which includes a strong tracking tool for applicants. The problem ultimately is user error and in some extreme cases laziness. But as an applicant (and this goes for any job in the ADF) you have certain rights and privileges that unfortunately most of you are not aware of. If you feel you are being unfairly treated, your first point of call should be your "case manager", and then through the DFR chain until you reach the Senior Military recruitment officer. If after all that work you don't seem to get anywhere, then take your issues to your local MP and subsequently move up the chain to the Minister.
MINDEF generally does not like hearing stories from applicants being unfairly treated and will always come down hard on the recruitment team involved if there is any evidence of laziness or poor management. He has this power through the contract.
At this point I would like to emphasise that this is not useful if you've sat a test and had been denied a position. i.e. attending a YOU session and not making the grade for pilot. Unfortunately the testing process in DFR is fairly waterproof with a large backing in psychological theories.
I'd also like to emphasise a few points made previously along the leadership line. If you are the squeaky wheel, you will get the grease. It shows leadership and a commitment to the recruitment process. I won't say that subsequent training in the ADF is easier than going through DFR, but once you've made that hurdle, the psychological boost you receive makes a lot of other challenges in the immediate future, a lot easier to bear.
Don't give up, and don't lose hope! The rewards of an aviation career in the ADF far outweigh the relatively short amount of pain you could potentially experience in the recruitment process
Join Date: Nov 2009
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I have my pilot assessment day tomorrow.
In regards to the essay which is conducted, i have heard for example of topics such as
1. Why do you want to serve in the ADF as an officer?
2. What qualities do you think a good officer should have?
3. What personal qualities and experiences do you believe you feel make you a good officer entry candidate?
Would you be required to write on all or just a specific topic.
Thanks in advance to any help
Lacho
In regards to the essay which is conducted, i have heard for example of topics such as
1. Why do you want to serve in the ADF as an officer?
2. What qualities do you think a good officer should have?
3. What personal qualities and experiences do you believe you feel make you a good officer entry candidate?
Would you be required to write on all or just a specific topic.
Thanks in advance to any help
Lacho
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
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Current DFR Aircrew Psychometric Testing
Good day/evening to you all.
My enquiry relates to the current Defence Force Recruiting (DFR) Aircrew Psychometric Testing format.
When I was processed through the initial aircrew testing day, back in 2004 - DFR used the long standing 'paper' hard copy tests (e.g. instrument appreciation, a/c attitudes, mathematics, etc). Mention was made at the time, that DFR would eventually adopt the 'AUSBAT' format.
A civvie friend wants to apply for ACO and I am trying to assist him with prep-work for aircrew testing. As it has been sometime since I was processed through the 'system' - I was wondering if anyone can advise if DFR are still using the old paper testing format, or has 'AUSBAT' already been introduced ?
I have called DFR, where the civilian I spoke with was quite 'cagey' about the information she provided (which is fair enough). Though, I fear she thought my intentions were perhaps erring on the sinister side !! All above board from my end !!
Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
My enquiry relates to the current Defence Force Recruiting (DFR) Aircrew Psychometric Testing format.
When I was processed through the initial aircrew testing day, back in 2004 - DFR used the long standing 'paper' hard copy tests (e.g. instrument appreciation, a/c attitudes, mathematics, etc). Mention was made at the time, that DFR would eventually adopt the 'AUSBAT' format.
A civvie friend wants to apply for ACO and I am trying to assist him with prep-work for aircrew testing. As it has been sometime since I was processed through the 'system' - I was wondering if anyone can advise if DFR are still using the old paper testing format, or has 'AUSBAT' already been introduced ?
I have called DFR, where the civilian I spoke with was quite 'cagey' about the information she provided (which is fair enough). Though, I fear she thought my intentions were perhaps erring on the sinister side !! All above board from my end !!
Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
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Lacho:
From memory it is just one topic but all three of the questions you posed can be summed up quite nicely in one essay. Just remember the good old days of essay writing in High school. Topic, Introduction, 3 good points and a conclusion.
Don't get too worried about the essay. Essentially they are assessing your ability to write down your thoughts in a coherant way using a high standard of english. The standard you should be at after finishing high school that is.
From memory it is just one topic but all three of the questions you posed can be summed up quite nicely in one essay. Just remember the good old days of essay writing in High school. Topic, Introduction, 3 good points and a conclusion.
Don't get too worried about the essay. Essentially they are assessing your ability to write down your thoughts in a coherant way using a high standard of english. The standard you should be at after finishing high school that is.
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Thank you spacemantan on your help.
Ant1984 and others,
I had my pilot assessment day on Tuesday and was given some very strong recommendations from both the psych and the defence interviewer, an R2 recommendations in fact.
I was fortunate enough to also be offered a 'backstage' meeting with the commanding squadron leader at the DFRC due to the strong interview recommendations I received.
My advice, I am parroting what others have said before on the thread but just be yourself, prepare well and just let your personality shine, if they wanted monotone robots, they would buy them.
Don’t forget to smile, it goes a long way. In addition to this shake their hand, good morning sir/ma'm, common courtesy goes a long way and shows officer potential maturity.
I have had a very streamlined recruitment process so far compared to some stories heard on this thread, but it is all about creating opportunities for yourself (i.e. attending ADFA if you are an ADFA applicant) and showing motivation to succeed.
Good luck to those vying for a spot on FSP and currently in the recruitment process.
Feel free to PM me if any questions.
Lacho
Ant1984 and others,
I had my pilot assessment day on Tuesday and was given some very strong recommendations from both the psych and the defence interviewer, an R2 recommendations in fact.
I was fortunate enough to also be offered a 'backstage' meeting with the commanding squadron leader at the DFRC due to the strong interview recommendations I received.
My advice, I am parroting what others have said before on the thread but just be yourself, prepare well and just let your personality shine, if they wanted monotone robots, they would buy them.
Don’t forget to smile, it goes a long way. In addition to this shake their hand, good morning sir/ma'm, common courtesy goes a long way and shows officer potential maturity.
I have had a very streamlined recruitment process so far compared to some stories heard on this thread, but it is all about creating opportunities for yourself (i.e. attending ADFA if you are an ADFA applicant) and showing motivation to succeed.
Good luck to those vying for a spot on FSP and currently in the recruitment process.
Feel free to PM me if any questions.
Lacho
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Always remember at my Officer InterView Board in the 80"s when asked "as a junior pilot in the squadron what will you be doing when you're not flying."
Totally stumped for an answer all I said was "anything the senior pilots don't want to do." Quickly followed by a roar of laughter.
Didn't really understand until I was a pilot officer in my first squadron where every SLJ came my way - then all became clear.
Good luck to all trying out - it can be frustating but ultimately it's a ball of fun.
Totally stumped for an answer all I said was "anything the senior pilots don't want to do." Quickly followed by a roar of laughter.
Didn't really understand until I was a pilot officer in my first squadron where every SLJ came my way - then all became clear.
Good luck to all trying out - it can be frustating but ultimately it's a ball of fun.