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RAAF Flight Screening Program (Merged)

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RAAF Flight Screening Program (Merged)

Old 10th Mar 2018, 05:36
  #3541 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 95
@tayra
I passed for both Pilot and Mission Elementary but this doesn't necessarily mean I will get an offer to attend an OSB.

You receive paperwork hours after the final exam. It will not show an actual numerical score, but rather a graph depicting how you went for each of the 7 tests for both Pilot and Mission Elementary separately. I was able to work my score out to be about 48/63 (76%). In 10 days I will receive paperwork stating if I have offers to attend an OSB for Pilot roles, Mission Elementary, both, or neither.

ASP results are only used in part of DFR's decision to whether I am invited to a OSB or not. I was told that I will most likely receive an offer for a ACO/ATC/ABM OSB but Pilot is more or less 50/50.

I only know of one candidate who passed with a higher grade than me (around 85-90%) and he was also told that his chances of receiving an offer for a Pilot OSB was also 50/50.
Many of the officers at East Sale suggested there was an 80% fail rate. From candidates I spoke to:
- 1 in 10 passed the Pilot test for the first group
- 2 in 10 passed the Pilot test in the 2nd group (of whom barely passed thus were told they most likely would not receive an offer for a Pilot OSB).
- 4 in 10 passed in my group but two would not be deemed competitive.
There were even some higher ranking Pilots who had been in the RAAF for over 20 years and said they had sat the test in the week prior and failed.

If you don't make the cut-off you won't go to an OSB. If you do make the cut-off you still need to be deemed competitive to receive an offer (even if you score 100% on the ASP).

Further to this, if I don't receive an offer for a Pilot OSB in 10 days I will effectively need to wait 12 months to get roughly an extra 5% to be deemed more competitive. It's a bit overkill really.

Last edited by hansfalkenhagen; 10th Mar 2018 at 10:16.
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 05:40
  #3542 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 95
Oh, also...

I don't know how they are selecting candidates for the ASP at the moment.

There were people who recently finished their assessment day and had started the entire recruitment process about 12 months ago. There were people who have been in the process for years and had waited 10 months since their assessment day. There were also 3 people in my group who had completed the FSP and the OSB - 2 of which failed and 1 barely passed.

There were also current civilian pilots who failed the ASP. It really was a mixed bag.
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 06:03
  #3543 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Victoria
Posts: 1
Hey man. Congratulations, I wish you all the best.
Also, what type of tests were they? Mental arithmetics, hand-eye coordination, memory tests, simulator testing?
Thanks
Fergusen is offline  
Old 10th Mar 2018, 10:28
  #3544 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen View Post
@tayra
I only know of one candidate who passed with a higher grade than me (around 85-90%) and he was also told that his chances of receiving an offer for a Pilot OSB was also 50/50.
That's interesting that a score that high still doesn't guarantee an OSB slot. Doesn't really leave much dynamic range in the scoring for assessing relative competitiveness. Perhaps the competitive score is higher at present because BFTS won't reach full throughput until well into next year and thus they don't have that many pilots slots to hand out.

Good luck with your potentially multiple OSBs.
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 10:31
  #3545 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2
Well done hans. I wish you all the best. What about the tests what were they? Maths? Memory? Simulation? Hand eye?
Is it true that the testing section spans 8 hours in time? Many thanks
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 10:43
  #3546 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 95
Further to my last comment, everyone in each group were pretty switched on and successful individuals. I don't see it as those who passed were smarter than those that did not.

While I passed the test, I certainly think their are many people who are more intelligent than I am yet they may still may not make the cut on the ASP. I am not trying to discourage anyone with my experience with the ASP. Just consider that the ASP tests for very specific traits, not necessarily your level of intelligence.

My advice for anyone attending the program is to not get too hung up on not making the cut. Everyone is still encouraged to come back to resit the tests 12 months later. ACMC will also give you the results for which areas you performed poorly on so you can improve your score.

Further to this, take the following in to consideration: you are not competing against anyone else but yourself. So don't get shitty with other candidates you see as a threat or those who achieve better results than you. I know of a few people (including myself) that had some weird experiences on the ASP caused by other disgruntled candidates.
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 10:50
  #3547 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by tayra View Post
That's interesting that a score that high still doesn't guarantee an OSB slot. Doesn't really leave much dynamic range in the scoring for assessing relative competitiveness. Perhaps the competitive score is higher at present because BFTS won't reach full throughput until well into next year and thus they don't have that many pilots slots to hand out.
I think a score as high as the one I made reference to will most likely get an offer to attend an OSB, however there are many other things taken in to consideration such as:
- service preference
- job preference
- current restrictions
- assessment results from DFR
- educational results/achievements
- psych results/assessment interview results etc

At least we will know in 10 days as to whether we get an offer to attend an OSB or not.
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 21:25
  #3548 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by Fergusen View Post
Also, what type of tests were they? Mental arithmetics, hand-eye coordination, memory tests, simulator testing?
Thanks
I won't go in to too much detail on the tests. Obviously DFR have spent a lot of time and money setting the ASP up, so spilling the beans specifically on the testing elements wouldn't be beneficial for anyone. I am not saying this to lessen other people's chances, I am saying this to make sure the right people are selected. It's best for everyone to go in fresh. Remember that many people do scrub out during pilot training - the ASP is another measure to reduce the fail rate.

A week or so before attending the ASP you will be sent the Joining Instructions booklet. At the end of this booklet you are given some information on the tests. Images and a brief explanation are shown for about 7 tests. There are however about 20 tests all up ranging from about 2 minutes to 35 minutes to complete.

The booklet does say to brush up on time, speed and distance questions and fuel calculations. I used the following link for this, but didn't really feel it helped too much: Speed Distance Time | OASC: RAF Officer and Aircrew Selection Centre

I would definitely brush up on general arithmetic though (12 times tables, general addition, etc).

There is absolutely no flight simulator testing however.

Originally Posted by michaelrobins View Post
Is it true that the testing section spans 8 hours in time? Many thanks
Yes there is about 8 hours of testing, however it is split over 2 days and you have an optional 5 minute break roughly every hour or so. Pilot specific testing is about 4 hours long, as is Mission Elementary testing.

The ASP will look similar to this:
Day 1: meet at Melbourne Airport about 12pm. The drive to Sale is about 3 hours, yet it took my driver about 5 hours. You will be in a group of 10 driving in a mini bus and have about a 45 minute break along the way. You will arrive at East Sale in the late arvo. After a short introduction you will be given flight suits and your room keys. You will share an apartment with about 3-4 other people. While you will have your own room, you will share the commons room, bathroom and laundry with your 3-4 house mates. Dinner will be around 6pm.
Day 2: Up at 6am and breakfast around 6.30am. 7.30 to about 11.30am will involve seminars and base tours. Lunch at 12pm and your Pilot specific testing from about 1.30-5.30pm. Dinner around 6pm.
Day 3: Basically the same as day 2 but the seminars and tours are in the arvo and Mission Elementary testing is in the morning. You will receive your results around 3-4pm.
Day 4: You will leave around 7-8am and head back to Melbourne Airport.

This thread has been very helpful to me, so I will drop back in a few times over the next few days to answer any questions. Like I said earlier, don't ask me anything too specific about the types of tests involved - I have given my reasons why.
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 23:54
  #3549 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2
Hey hans, so if you aim for pilot role you have to try your best both for pilot and mission elementary testing?
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Old 11th Mar 2018, 03:10
  #3550 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by michaelrobins View Post
Hey hans, so if you aim for pilot role you have to try your best both for pilot and mission elementary testing?
Mate, it's entirely up to you if you try your best for both tests or not.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 01:35
  #3551 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Central Qld
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen View Post
I won't go in to too much detail on the tests. Obviously DFR have spent a lot of time and money setting the ASP up, so spilling the beans specifically on the testing elements wouldn't be beneficial for anyone
Great insight, thanks hans and others.
Aside from the structured “tests” at ASP, did the assessment and grading of the candidates cross over into other personal aspects such as service knowledge, personal motivation, conduct, teamwork, leadership, knowledge of training, career expectations etc? Obviously not from formal interviews but in any way contributing the competitiveness of the candidate.
Naturally these are critical and will bear out during OSB, but in preparing for ASP as efficiently as possible it would helpful to get a sense of these other items that don’t feature as highly or at all. If someone had entered this process from the pilot candidate side for example, is there any advantage or benefit in getting across all roles covered by ASP before arriving?
Many thanks to the contributors and best of luck to all candidates!
Central.runner is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 08:01
  #3552 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1
ASP offer

Hi all,

My EC advised in mid Feb that there are around 200 people in total recommended from previous OSBs (Pilots, ACOs & JBACs). Virtually everyone validity in the pool had to run out before the ASP kicked in on March 6th.

ASPs will consist of new candidates and the previous recommended lot.

The ASPs are all back to back in March. 4 ASP the 1st wk, 4 the second, 3 the third and 2 in the last wk of march.

Next ASP rounds will be in May.

Hope this helps those wondering what is going on.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 08:53
  #3553 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by Central.runner View Post
Aside from the structured “tests” at ASP, did the assessment and grading of the candidates cross over into other personal aspects such as service knowledge, personal motivation, conduct, teamwork, leadership, knowledge of training, career expectations etc? Obviously not from formal interviews but in any way contributing the competitiveness of the candidate.
The ASP is strictly for testing a candidate's cognitive functions and, during the ASP, you are graded on this and this only.

Afterwards, ACMC choose to give you an offer to attend a specific OSB (be RAN Pilot, or RAAF ACO, etc). Their decision is based off the things you've mentioned, ie. service knowledge, personal motivation, etc - but these things were already determined during your YOU Session, additional testing and Assessment Day.

To reiterate, the ASP tests only your cognitive functions. Afterwards you will get an offer to attend an OSB based off your results right from the beginning (You session right through to ASP).

Originally Posted by Central.runner View Post
If someone had entered this process from the pilot candidate side for example, is there any advantage or benefit in getting across all roles covered by ASP before arriving?
I am not exactly sure what you mean by this. Are you asking if there is even any point trying for Mission Elementary testing if you are only applying for Pilot?

If this is your question, it is important to remember that the ASP tests for Pilots (for all three services), other Officer Aviation roles in the RAAF (roles are slightly changing, JBAC is now simply called Air Traffic Control... ABM (Air Battle Management) is now a separate role, etc) and other roles such as Navy AvWo.

If a candidate received 100% on the pilot's test and 0% on the Mission Elementary test, I wouldn't be surprised if they just kicked you out then and there.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 09:10
  #3554 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 41
So they have actually created two distinct sets of testing for both officer aviation pathways? I would imagine there absolutely would be a large degree of overlap in requirements for both roles.

From the research I've done on the RAF testing (which I believe is what we've adapted/licensed), their tests are split into aptitude domains of:

verbal reasoning, numerical reasoning, spatial reasoning, work rate, attentional capability and psychomotor coordination. They test all 6 domains and then perform what they've defined to be an optimal weighting of each to give you your pilot/aco/jbac etc. score.

The only possible non-crossover domain for JBAC/ACO would be pyschomotor coordination (which isn't even the highest weighted domain for pilot in the RAF).

But I guess this is all needless speculation and I'll find out what's what in about a week. In my view it would be entirely pointless to perform worse on the mission elementary testing in some hope that it will put you in higher contention for a pilot OSB.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 10:02
  #3555 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 95
Tayra, you are correct in most of what you have said except there are 7 aptitude domains for the pilot test and 6 for mission elementary - I am betting you can guess which domain is not tested for the latter (in fact, you already have).

While both Pilot and Mission Elementary might test for "spatial reasoning", for instance, the actual "spatial reasoning" tests will be different for each ASP test - if that makes sense.

Like I said earlier, to my understanding, the Pilot test has about an 80% fail rate of a pool of pretty intelligent and successful people. For these people who fail the Pilot test, or rank low on this test, they will still have an opportunity to sit a Mission Elementary OSB ON THE PROVISION THEY ACTUALLY PUT IN THE EFFORT FOR THE MISSION ELEMENTARY TEST!

Further to this, I am getting a little tired of the candidates who claim they will ONLY accept a pilot role - or worse, will only accept a fast-jet role in the RAAF.

If a candidate will ONLY accept a pilot role, I'd argue that the candidate should simply cancel their ADF application and pursue a career in civilian aviation. I, for one, would happily accept a non-aviation role, even a non-aviation & non-officer role, if I was unsuccessful with my chosen preferences.

You need to actually have the desire to be in the Defence Force in the first place.

Last edited by hansfalkenhagen; 13th Mar 2018 at 11:37.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 10:48
  #3556 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Aus
Age: 27
Posts: 285
Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen View Post

Further to this, I am getting a little tired of the candidates who claim they will ONLY accept a pilot role - or worse, will only accept a fast-jet role in the RAAF.

If a candidate will ONLY accept a pilot role, I'd argue that the candidate should simply cancel their ADF application and pursue a career in civilian aviation. I, for one, would happily accept a non-aviation role, even a non-aviation & non-officer role, if I was unsuccessful with my chosen preferences.

You need to actually have the desire to be in the Defence Force in the first place.
There's nothing wrong with people knowing what they want. The RAAF will take as much (if not more) out of you than it will ever give you in return. No point playing the game if it isn't worth the prize at the end in your personal desires.

I wouldn't have joined the RAAF as anything other than a pilot. That doesn't make me a bad officer, if that was the case there'd be a lot less pilots...
junior.VH-LFA is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 13:19
  #3557 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: overthere
Posts: 2,865
Hans the world is not a fair place. The RAAF has been hiring pilots for a long time. They know what you need to pass the course, and what you need to have a successful career.
Someone totally focused of being a RAAF Pilot with no interest in being a NAV etc, is not a lesser candidate to someone who wants so badly to be in the military they would take any job.
You either pass the selection or you don't. If you don't, it's a personal choice what you choose to do next.
But I agree with you about someone thinking doing badly in the non pilot tests is somehow going to help their application. They would seem to have some gaps in critical reasoning, and perhaps a different career choice would better suit.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 21:17
  #3558 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Central Qld
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen View Post
I am not exactly sure what you mean by this. Are you asking if there is even any point trying for Mission Elementary testing if you are only applying for Pilot?
Thanks hans, you’ve answered the question in your response. The question wasn’t about effort in any particular test but rather being caught off guard in a conversation about other roles and having little knowledge about them. For what’s it worth, these recent contributions have prompted me to at least gain an overview of these roles before ASP.
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 00:36
  #3559 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 210
Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen View Post
being an ACO in a P8 is still are far better career than any civilian role I can think of.
Wow, you sure know a lot about aviation, military and civilian, for someone who's just starting out...

I'd rather sit up the front of any aircraft as a pilot, any day, than sit down the back of anything (super hornet included).
Slezy9 is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2018, 00:48
  #3560 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Aus
Age: 27
Posts: 285
Originally Posted by Slezy9 View Post
Wow, you sure know a lot about aviation, military and civilian, for someone who's just starting out...

I'd rather sit up the front of any aircraft as a pilot, any day, than sit down the back of anything (super hornet included).

You got that right.


I like being a pilot, if it didn't work out here I'd be giving it a crack somewhere else. You should go have a chat to any ACO's working in the civilian sector of aviation post leaving the RAAF and their employability... there's a lot more to think of when joining Defence than just being keen to do everything. It doesn't make anyone less of a candidate when they know what they want to do and what they're not interested in.


Just as an offside remark as well, there's no such thing as applying yourself for only a "fighter pilot" role, by the time you find out if you're going fighters or not it's too late to just disappear into the ether if you find out you're going multi crew. That’s not how pilots course works.

Where is the civilian equivalent of fast jet aircrew? I guarantee there are lot more ex Fast Jet Pilots working at the mainlines right now than there are ACO’s.
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