re-enlistment for civvy pilot - any options?
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Can I just ask some questions please.
1. How many of you here are ex military pilots?
2. If you are not, why exactly do you think you have the knowledge to say what the military needs from a pilot?
3. Why are you all so chippy about this? It is not that I'm saying that civvys are ****, it's just that it is a different ball game. Not necessarily a better one, just a different one. Everbody who comes forward with a "ex-military bloke on my course was rubbish" story only reinforces what I am saying. He was good at what he did, and not in the civvy world. That's because they are different worlds.
Bringing up the type conversion by some civvys for King air pilots totally misses the point. They go to the states for 3 weeks, one week of which is tech ground school plus maybe ten sim trips, during which they had to ignore lots of crazy US civvy versions of stall training etc, then once they got back learn to fly it in a military manner.
Do you think that the important facet of their training was that three weeks in the US, or the 3 years of military flying training they did first? Duh? Do you think the current King Air display pilot got taught that stuff by Flight Safety International?
The mention of the FRA Falcons who fly the simulated targets etc is way off the mark. They are very picky about who they hire even from within the ex-mil environment. Currently all ex fast jet except one ex jungly I believe though don't quote me on that.
Yes there are lots of civvys around in military training environments. Gosh, and hasn't that gone well. Jefts used to have a civvy instructor who was ex UAS, failed to get into the RAF so became an instructor, and got hired to teach the future Aircrew of the UK! And funnily enough he was arse and not allowed to teach Aero's or Formation. Yes I can think of a few stars, but for every Alan Wade there are 5 useless buggers. I believe 750 NAS tried to hire a CAA examiner for gods sake and he failed the conversion!
The main point it comes down to is that yes, you would get a few good guys in if you hired ex mil guys who are now civvy pilots in, but they would be in all aspects a first tourist and would have to go through the full training just like everybody else, costing just as much time and effort, with a vastly reduced payback in terms of years to serve.
We have no shortage of people wanting join up, just a shortage of experienced guys.
As a civvy pilot joining up, you are not experienced.
If you turn up at EFT with an ATPL, you will do exactly the same trips as everbody else, and would find out after about one week that your advantage had disapeared.
1. How many of you here are ex military pilots?
2. If you are not, why exactly do you think you have the knowledge to say what the military needs from a pilot?
3. Why are you all so chippy about this? It is not that I'm saying that civvys are ****, it's just that it is a different ball game. Not necessarily a better one, just a different one. Everbody who comes forward with a "ex-military bloke on my course was rubbish" story only reinforces what I am saying. He was good at what he did, and not in the civvy world. That's because they are different worlds.
Bringing up the type conversion by some civvys for King air pilots totally misses the point. They go to the states for 3 weeks, one week of which is tech ground school plus maybe ten sim trips, during which they had to ignore lots of crazy US civvy versions of stall training etc, then once they got back learn to fly it in a military manner.
Do you think that the important facet of their training was that three weeks in the US, or the 3 years of military flying training they did first? Duh? Do you think the current King Air display pilot got taught that stuff by Flight Safety International?
The mention of the FRA Falcons who fly the simulated targets etc is way off the mark. They are very picky about who they hire even from within the ex-mil environment. Currently all ex fast jet except one ex jungly I believe though don't quote me on that.
Yes there are lots of civvys around in military training environments. Gosh, and hasn't that gone well. Jefts used to have a civvy instructor who was ex UAS, failed to get into the RAF so became an instructor, and got hired to teach the future Aircrew of the UK! And funnily enough he was arse and not allowed to teach Aero's or Formation. Yes I can think of a few stars, but for every Alan Wade there are 5 useless buggers. I believe 750 NAS tried to hire a CAA examiner for gods sake and he failed the conversion!
The main point it comes down to is that yes, you would get a few good guys in if you hired ex mil guys who are now civvy pilots in, but they would be in all aspects a first tourist and would have to go through the full training just like everybody else, costing just as much time and effort, with a vastly reduced payback in terms of years to serve.
We have no shortage of people wanting join up, just a shortage of experienced guys.
As a civvy pilot joining up, you are not experienced.
If you turn up at EFT with an ATPL, you will do exactly the same trips as everbody else, and would find out after about one week that your advantage had disapeared.
Last edited by Tourist; 3rd Jul 2008 at 16:17.
Once upon a time there was an organisation called the Air Transport Auxiliary (ATA). I am sure that if the need arose a similar organisation could be formed again. It has not been done, so we can only conclude that the need is not perceived.
YS
YS
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I have to agree with Tourist.
He has shown no condescension to anyone. Military flying training is totally different to civ flying training and doesn't make one different to the other.
Oh wait! News Flash!
Delivering a bomb onto the end of a laser beam in a hostile environment then returning to a basic airfield living in portakabins, getting paid relatively little and made to move your family every few years is clearly a total breeze compared to plugging in the autopilot at 400 feet, reading the paper for a few hours, then whinging about how crap your downtown 5 star hotel is, whilst beating off swarms of hosties with a ****ty stick.
It's a no-brainer!
BA will be in serious trouble as they try retain their experienced aircrew who will give up their Surrey mansions and bang on Whitehall's door seeking the care-free life militaire..
You can't be semi-skimmed in the military unless you teach at elementary or drive an unarmed taxi. We already have that. Babcock at Barkston, and the Kingair that flies the Q crews about (or used to). Again, provided by a civvy air taxi company.
He has shown no condescension to anyone. Military flying training is totally different to civ flying training and doesn't make one different to the other.
Oh wait! News Flash!
Delivering a bomb onto the end of a laser beam in a hostile environment then returning to a basic airfield living in portakabins, getting paid relatively little and made to move your family every few years is clearly a total breeze compared to plugging in the autopilot at 400 feet, reading the paper for a few hours, then whinging about how crap your downtown 5 star hotel is, whilst beating off swarms of hosties with a ****ty stick.
It's a no-brainer!
BA will be in serious trouble as they try retain their experienced aircrew who will give up their Surrey mansions and bang on Whitehall's door seeking the care-free life militaire..
You can't be semi-skimmed in the military unless you teach at elementary or drive an unarmed taxi. We already have that. Babcock at Barkston, and the Kingair that flies the Q crews about (or used to). Again, provided by a civvy air taxi company.
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Tourist
Yes you may ask a few questions just listen to the answers.......
How exactly do you fly a light turbo prop in a military manner, what are you doing in them ?
What do you do in your Kingairs that civilians do not do in theirs.
Your 200's are EXACTLY the same as civvie versions the yanks but bigger donks in and fly the 200's to 15,000lb. Not RAF just plain old Vanilla B200's not strengthened not faster just the same. Just cos somebody can chuck one around a circuit low level does not make it any more difficult to fly operationally. Guy I spoke to said that the Collins Proline kit made it more capable than most tonkas.
Monty
Kingairs dont carry bombs neither do islanders (apart from paras) which is exactly the point, they CANT nobody wants to get into a pissing contest about which is better, Tourist is correct horses for courses. Like others when I see serious FJ kit being operated properly I stop what I'm doing and watch but we are talking about very civvie derived kit adopted for use by the RAF, to say that Civvies cant use them to their design limits and beyond sometimes is just BS cos they do.
Yes you may ask a few questions just listen to the answers.......
How exactly do you fly a light turbo prop in a military manner, what are you doing in them ?
What do you do in your Kingairs that civilians do not do in theirs.
Your 200's are EXACTLY the same as civvie versions the yanks but bigger donks in and fly the 200's to 15,000lb. Not RAF just plain old Vanilla B200's not strengthened not faster just the same. Just cos somebody can chuck one around a circuit low level does not make it any more difficult to fly operationally. Guy I spoke to said that the Collins Proline kit made it more capable than most tonkas.
Monty
Kingairs dont carry bombs neither do islanders (apart from paras) which is exactly the point, they CANT nobody wants to get into a pissing contest about which is better, Tourist is correct horses for courses. Like others when I see serious FJ kit being operated properly I stop what I'm doing and watch but we are talking about very civvie derived kit adopted for use by the RAF, to say that Civvies cant use them to their design limits and beyond sometimes is just BS cos they do.
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"to say that Civvies cant use them to their design limits and beyond sometimes is just BS cos they do."
Not sure we want that sort of amateur tomfoolery in the military
Not sure we want that sort of amateur tomfoolery in the military
I think it was the comment that to be a civvy Pilot all one needs is a big wad of cash that has upset a few of us! Whilst it is true that most civvy Pilot's do have to pay for a licence one way or another, it does still require an enormous amount of motivation and determination to succeed, sadly money cannot buy you that! Plenty wannabe civvy Pilot's fail despite having the available funds behind them. Military Crews pay for training by commiting many years of your life to the service of the Crown, living in tents in a warzone and being moved away from home every few years, so ultimately we all pay if we wish to be aviators! Some of you guys and gals in the forces feel that civilians do not pay you enough respect or admire the sacrifices that you make, it goes both ways, we feel that Mil Pilots look down their noses at civilians. We all share the same passion, we all love aeroplanes, why dont we just have a big group hug!! 
I don't know, have you tried it? I'm assuming that when your military career ends you wont wish to pursue a civilian flying career if it is so mentally unchallenging? I'm glad that I still have stacks of admiration for all of our armed forces, I will always look up when I see a military FJ flying over and feel that pang of jealousy, it's just a shame that you have such a poor opinion of us mere civilians.
G-SPOT
If you need to even consider asking that question, then you don't need to know!!
Before this turns into a Civ-Mil p
g contest, could I please just sound a note of caution? COMSEC. 
I can guarantee that anyone joining the RAF as a pilot with a commercial licence will do the syllabus along with their course mates. They may get through that syllabus slightly faster (missing out the odd trip here and there) but they will get to a point where their previous skills will run out as new ones are taught (low level and formation are but 2 worth mentioning). At that point they are in the same boat as their course mates.
No-one gets to join with the pure intention of becoming a pilot on X or Y aircraft. Everyone is assessed for suitability for FJ, ME or RW, therefore everyone has to meet the requirements of the most demanding stream. That means (at present) no glasses, no asthma and age limits for entry to training. If you don't meet the requirements, you don't get in - regardless of how many hours and what licenses you have.
There is a big difference between flying an aircraft and operating it.
What do you do in your Kingairs that civilians do not do in theirs.
Before this turns into a Civ-Mil p
g contest, could I please just sound a note of caution? COMSEC. I can guarantee that anyone joining the RAF as a pilot with a commercial licence will do the syllabus along with their course mates. They may get through that syllabus slightly faster (missing out the odd trip here and there) but they will get to a point where their previous skills will run out as new ones are taught (low level and formation are but 2 worth mentioning). At that point they are in the same boat as their course mates.
No-one gets to join with the pure intention of becoming a pilot on X or Y aircraft. Everyone is assessed for suitability for FJ, ME or RW, therefore everyone has to meet the requirements of the most demanding stream. That means (at present) no glasses, no asthma and age limits for entry to training. If you don't meet the requirements, you don't get in - regardless of how many hours and what licenses you have.
There is a big difference between flying an aircraft and operating it.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Roland has the size of it. Alex may have been a schoolie but he has been out 9 years. This suggests an age in the mid-30 of more. He has no special skills such as an instructor's ticket. Even if accepted on a limited ticket with a path to KingAir QFI he would need to go to CFS.
The only thing going for him is he can fly. Beyond that there is no evidence of standard nor of ability to fly any other type except a light-twin piston, a type not widely used in military service.
The only thing going for him is he can fly. Beyond that there is no evidence of standard nor of ability to fly any other type except a light-twin piston, a type not widely used in military service.
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Roland
Comsec is not an issue here and I'm not going to let you use it as a get out of Jail card. For the record nobody is showing any disrespect for the numerous servicemen of all flavours on manouvres.
Yep FJ, large turboprop,RW deserve our full respect for having been through the system. Landies out of the back of hercs and Typhoons at 9G Full marks you sincerely earn our respect........but hang on a minute, I have here a B200 operating manual that says...and I quote VMO 260 kCAS and load factor limits of + 3.17G and - 1.27G
Many civilian pilots cut their teeth on 200's as a simple turbine first aircraft, I'm not on home turf here but I would welcome you to come over to the GA & Bizjets Forum and kindly tell some very experienced 30yr 200 pilots where we are going wrong.
Definition of Amateur Tomfoolery......
Flying at sea level through an offshore windfarm having forgot to turn off your mode C. Yessssss seen it with my own eyes from an Irish sea radar room.
As for "Tomfoolery" you only have to spend two minutes in the mil forum before you get posts that begin with "I remember when........" & "What about the time". Dont get me wrong I'll laugh harder than the next guy but lets agree just not to go there shall we.
guys I'm not on about FJ or any other "specialist" bit of flying because you got me....sincerely full marks you do a great job that others could not do, but I'm on about a B200 here NOT A320's to Tenerife. Its an efficient way of getting some people from A to B and its not hard. Alex already said that he didn't expect to start harrier flying anytime soon.
By rerecruiting some people to fly the more elementary tasks it might give some guys who have recently returned from far away postings a little more R & R as another poster said there has already been the precedent set in the past especially when the services are up against it.
To flame the guy with Elitist nonsense because he was offering to fly a 200 from A to B is just unfair.
To Finish
Pontius
He is flying a current military type
aidu
You are a knob
Comsec is not an issue here and I'm not going to let you use it as a get out of Jail card. For the record nobody is showing any disrespect for the numerous servicemen of all flavours on manouvres.
Yep FJ, large turboprop,RW deserve our full respect for having been through the system. Landies out of the back of hercs and Typhoons at 9G Full marks you sincerely earn our respect........but hang on a minute, I have here a B200 operating manual that says...and I quote VMO 260 kCAS and load factor limits of + 3.17G and - 1.27G
Many civilian pilots cut their teeth on 200's as a simple turbine first aircraft, I'm not on home turf here but I would welcome you to come over to the GA & Bizjets Forum and kindly tell some very experienced 30yr 200 pilots where we are going wrong.
Seldomfitforpurpose "to say that Civvies cant use them to their design limits and beyond sometimes is just BS cos they do."
Not sure we want that sort of amateur tomfoolery in the military
Not sure we want that sort of amateur tomfoolery in the military
Flying at sea level through an offshore windfarm having forgot to turn off your mode C. Yessssss seen it with my own eyes from an Irish sea radar room.
As for "Tomfoolery" you only have to spend two minutes in the mil forum before you get posts that begin with "I remember when........" & "What about the time". Dont get me wrong I'll laugh harder than the next guy but lets agree just not to go there shall we.
guys I'm not on about FJ or any other "specialist" bit of flying because you got me....sincerely full marks you do a great job that others could not do, but I'm on about a B200 here NOT A320's to Tenerife. Its an efficient way of getting some people from A to B and its not hard. Alex already said that he didn't expect to start harrier flying anytime soon.
By rerecruiting some people to fly the more elementary tasks it might give some guys who have recently returned from far away postings a little more R & R as another poster said there has already been the precedent set in the past especially when the services are up against it.
To flame the guy with Elitist nonsense because he was offering to fly a 200 from A to B is just unfair.
To Finish
Pontius
He is flying a current military type
aidu
You are a knob
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G Spot
I've seen a Warrant Officer in the AAC stick an Islander on it's side in an extreme AOB turn to take a picture.
Of a dead body dumped on a footbridge in Northern Ireland. An alleged informer.
He had to use extreme angles of bank at low level because:
a. some bastard with a high-velocity sniper rifle may well have been waiting and using the body as bait.
b. the cloud base was 400 feet, but get on with it
c. given the border area, if he had gone 'international' there would have been an incident with the Irish Govt/police.
I saw it.
Civvy Air Taxis don't provide that service, don't have access to secure mil r/t nets and don't need it anyway.
Bring on your ATPL holders who are as capable as their military equivalents.
Then send them to the Middle East.
It's simply not the same.
You pinko commie faggot.
(If you can't take a joke, it's your fault, not mine)
I've seen a Warrant Officer in the AAC stick an Islander on it's side in an extreme AOB turn to take a picture.
Of a dead body dumped on a footbridge in Northern Ireland. An alleged informer.
He had to use extreme angles of bank at low level because:
a. some bastard with a high-velocity sniper rifle may well have been waiting and using the body as bait.
b. the cloud base was 400 feet, but get on with it
c. given the border area, if he had gone 'international' there would have been an incident with the Irish Govt/police.
I saw it.
Civvy Air Taxis don't provide that service, don't have access to secure mil r/t nets and don't need it anyway.
Bring on your ATPL holders who are as capable as their military equivalents.
Then send them to the Middle East.
It's simply not the same.
You pinko commie faggot.
(If you can't take a joke, it's your fault, not mine)
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Monty
Goodun.....Couldn't think of a witty retort within 60 secs so you can have that one ....... 
speak to the civvy guys who are operating F406's on the fisheries contract at extreme AOB at 100ft with a 45 ft span in rough seas. in the main all self improver civilian guys with ex mil radar chaps down the back.
They do this every day. VHF/UHF/Marine freqs and AWACs coordination into live danger areas as spanish trawlermen do not concern themselves with red edged lines on a map.
Dont want to get into a pissing contest with you. I simply wish to make you and your peers aware that this sort of thing takes place outside of the military by civilian trained pilots on most days ending with a Y.
Pinko Commie Faggot
speak to the civvy guys who are operating F406's on the fisheries contract at extreme AOB at 100ft with a 45 ft span in rough seas. in the main all self improver civilian guys with ex mil radar chaps down the back.
They do this every day. VHF/UHF/Marine freqs and AWACs coordination into live danger areas as spanish trawlermen do not concern themselves with red edged lines on a map.
Dont want to get into a pissing contest with you. I simply wish to make you and your peers aware that this sort of thing takes place outside of the military by civilian trained pilots on most days ending with a Y.
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Any Monkey Can Fly it
Any monkey can fly it, but the task involves a lot more than flying from A to B. Aircraft operate in difficult environments and an awarness and understanding of the 'air picture' is essential and not easily acquired by any tom dick or harry.
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It is hardly difficult to fly an Airbus to Teneriffe compared to flying a Harrier in Afghanistan. In your Airbus you just put the gear up and sit back whilst the Autopilot flies it and eventually lets you taxi it at the other end after an auto landing. Although I guess you must be busy reading the newspaper and answering the odd radio call when pestered by ATC
Seriously, full respect to the mil guys, but please show us some respect too.
Incidentally, on a more serious note, if my quals are useless to the military, does anybody know of any civvy or quango operators in the sandpit looking for pilots? I saw an ad in FI a while back for DC3 pilots, but not rated on them. There must be some other civvy jobs out there?
Last edited by CirrusF; 3rd Jul 2008 at 21:09.
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cirrusfrance,
I bet my left testicle AIDU doesn't fly Harriers.
I bet my left testicle AIDU doesn't fly Harriers.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Indupitably Sir but "flying Islanders then latterly King Airs" are hardly frontline and no indication that he could handle heavy metal or helicopters or any of the AT aircraft.
The bottom line is that he is overage and not flying state of the art hardware.
You are not all bad, at least we agree with somethings.
The bottom line is that he is overage and not flying state of the art hardware.
aidu
You are a knob
You are a knob