78 Sqn Chinook Crash (20 years ago)
Every Military suffers from that kind of Command Structure. I recall during the Vietnam War when Bombs become scarce.....Aircraft were dispatched with a single Bomb to keep the Sortie Count up....thus resulting in the loss of Aircraft and Pilots for no good reason.
Hubstrasse:-
That's when you expect your airworthiness authority to swing into action on your behalf. Trouble is that the UK Military Airworthiness Authority (aka the MOD) was working on behalf of certain RAF VSOs rather than yours. Result, another hole in the cheese lines up on the first. Happily, your boss was a boss, and acts professionally by going out on a limb. He did his job and ensured that the next slice blocked the way. Good man! A lesson for us all.
Boeing had apparently had a rogue assembly worker putting a rather impotant thrunge bearing in upside down resulting in a loss or two Stateside.
Kosovo 99
Remember it well. We were out tasking and were told to off-load our pax at one of the FOBs. We proceeded directly to Skopje with just the crew and the Puma det picked up the job.
Took them hours to complete and we were on our penultimate drop!
I vaguely recall that the grounding happened within the period of a day and that time zone differences didn't help. The US had ground their ac overnight (to us) and we couldn't get any details until later in the day, so we carried on tasking until we got confirmation. Having said that, I do seem to remember that there was an initial difference of opinion and the US crews housed next to us were the ones that alerted us in the first instance, not the UK. A few 'grounded-parties' ensued!
Took them hours to complete and we were on our penultimate drop!
I vaguely recall that the grounding happened within the period of a day and that time zone differences didn't help. The US had ground their ac overnight (to us) and we couldn't get any details until later in the day, so we carried on tasking until we got confirmation. Having said that, I do seem to remember that there was an initial difference of opinion and the US crews housed next to us were the ones that alerted us in the first instance, not the UK. A few 'grounded-parties' ensued!
"Boeing had apparently had a rogue assembly worker putting a rather impotant thrunge bearing in upside down resulting in a loss or two Stateside. "
And, through an assumed lack of drawing control, transferred the same problem to Almondbank, UK.
And, through an assumed lack of drawing control, transferred the same problem to Almondbank, UK.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Beyond PNR
Age: 57
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MG, Chugalug,
Indeed the info came, I'm fairly sure, directly from the US maintainers who were eager to compare notes. MG, yes some positive leadership, even explaining to those concerned how he (the boss) had been 'ordered' to fly the ac despite strong representation. I recall the boss being speechless when he first read the eventual grounding signal. US crews seemed to do quite a bit of sunbathing in the am...... could have been the 'special' diet Coke passed through the fence since US general order number 1 stipulates a dry regime.
Indeed the info came, I'm fairly sure, directly from the US maintainers who were eager to compare notes. MG, yes some positive leadership, even explaining to those concerned how he (the boss) had been 'ordered' to fly the ac despite strong representation. I recall the boss being speechless when he first read the eventual grounding signal. US crews seemed to do quite a bit of sunbathing in the am...... could have been the 'special' diet Coke passed through the fence since US general order number 1 stipulates a dry regime.
Hubstrasse, I guess we know each other. Remember the escape tunnel through the razor wire that we helped the US guys to dig so that they could 'liaise' with us?
Last edited by MG; 10th Aug 2013 at 06:33.
Ah the Kosovo grounding parties.....Effectively the Great Escape in reverse as we smuggled Skopsko beer in (past the guard towers) and steaks and CH47 crews/maintainers out. I seem to recall a particularly enthusiastic game of murder ball at circa 3am...
SASLess,
I agree with what you say; for years I campaigned to get a RAF exchange on the CH47F with the US Army. It was continually rebuffed on the grounds of cost and necessity; the Fast Jet dominated exchange organisation would not give up one of their scores of US exchanges to compensate, nor fund an additional post. When I commented that it was ridiculous we didn't have an exchange I was put firmly back in my box as 'we were never going to buy new CH47s again'. I enjoyed no little schadenfreude when VSOs were scrabbling to gather info on the CH47F, DAFCS and CAAS when ordered to buy new cabs at short notice......we even had to send the AH64 TP (a RN pilot) at Rucker to fly it for background.
The big problem is, as always, money. VSOs control less and less nowadays so travel budgets give them the chance to influence something. Some of the best info and opinion I ever got was at the PM Cargo CHUC which I managed to get to on a few occasions (I do like Huntsville!). I was appalled that the only 2 RAF operators there were me and the RTS airworthiness rep; other countries sent large contingents. Why? Money, and the view that any trip to the US is 'a jolly' unless, of course, your using Air Comd money not JHC/DE&S. I certainly remember being engaged in conversation for most of the conference, as there was a genuine interest from the US in what we did and how. As for Colombia - I spoke to them at the CHUC and heli-expo and gave all the contacts to our engineering fraternity...not sure if it ever came to anything.
SASLess,
I agree with what you say; for years I campaigned to get a RAF exchange on the CH47F with the US Army. It was continually rebuffed on the grounds of cost and necessity; the Fast Jet dominated exchange organisation would not give up one of their scores of US exchanges to compensate, nor fund an additional post. When I commented that it was ridiculous we didn't have an exchange I was put firmly back in my box as 'we were never going to buy new CH47s again'. I enjoyed no little schadenfreude when VSOs were scrabbling to gather info on the CH47F, DAFCS and CAAS when ordered to buy new cabs at short notice......we even had to send the AH64 TP (a RN pilot) at Rucker to fly it for background.
The big problem is, as always, money. VSOs control less and less nowadays so travel budgets give them the chance to influence something. Some of the best info and opinion I ever got was at the PM Cargo CHUC which I managed to get to on a few occasions (I do like Huntsville!). I was appalled that the only 2 RAF operators there were me and the RTS airworthiness rep; other countries sent large contingents. Why? Money, and the view that any trip to the US is 'a jolly' unless, of course, your using Air Comd money not JHC/DE&S. I certainly remember being engaged in conversation for most of the conference, as there was a genuine interest from the US in what we did and how. As for Colombia - I spoke to them at the CHUC and heli-expo and gave all the contacts to our engineering fraternity...not sure if it ever came to anything.
Last edited by Evalu8ter; 10th Aug 2013 at 06:35.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Odiham
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst I don't doubt your friends recollection SASLess I was at KAF in 2006 when the RAF Chinook force first arrived and attended several liaison meeting with the US and Dutch. We also operated alongside the "Flippers" on many occasions until RC South was split. It was just a shame that KAF is dry and we were all too busy to socialise properly.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,048
Received 2,920 Likes
on
1,249 Posts
I can remember a few of the problems when we got the HC1, one was the hyd motors on the APU exploding, several had gone one spraying the unfortunate crewman standing below it.. It turned out the wrong dash number pumps had been fitted.
One arrived at Southampton had the emergency hatch fall out on take off.
All the manuals that came with the aircraft were printed on yellow paper, as we used / worked through sections and we were happy, they were amended or not and changed to white paper.
I walked across the hangar one day and they had folded the blades, had them all secured and were about to put hyd power on.... A recipe for disaster that one.
They also took power off one with the rigging pins installed resulting in a lot of bent pins.
Then there was the intermediate drive problems where the Americans had been installing / phasing the rotors with the aid of a jacking handle. A bolt eventually let go de phasing the rotors and killing a crewman.. The fix was a bigger bolt as they did not then know the reason, seem to remember a Boeing rep reaming the holes out with a windy drill, writing off the boxes.
One arrived at Southampton had the emergency hatch fall out on take off.
All the manuals that came with the aircraft were printed on yellow paper, as we used / worked through sections and we were happy, they were amended or not and changed to white paper.
I walked across the hangar one day and they had folded the blades, had them all secured and were about to put hyd power on.... A recipe for disaster that one.
They also took power off one with the rigging pins installed resulting in a lot of bent pins.
Then there was the intermediate drive problems where the Americans had been installing / phasing the rotors with the aid of a jacking handle. A bolt eventually let go de phasing the rotors and killing a crewman.. The fix was a bigger bolt as they did not then know the reason, seem to remember a Boeing rep reaming the holes out with a windy drill, writing off the boxes.
Last edited by NutLoose; 11th Aug 2013 at 16:52.
Ah yes the infamous Phasing Lever and its single bolt!
A certain amount of Trust is required to fly Wokka's!
Cranking an APU with the Blades folded......or shutting off the hydraulics with the Rigging Pins in place.....now who is being the Silly Boy?
I recall one afternoon....after a very long day....without our standard shutdown and maintenance check after four hours of flying or so.....as the blades coasted to a stop.....one of the forward blades kept right on going until it banged into the blade in front of it.
Seems we had lost one end of the Blade Damper in flight. No unusual symptoms noted until the two blades married up in front of us.
How many times did you ever have to hand pump the Utility Hydraulic System Accumulator to enough pressure to start the APU?
A certain amount of Trust is required to fly Wokka's!
Cranking an APU with the Blades folded......or shutting off the hydraulics with the Rigging Pins in place.....now who is being the Silly Boy?
I recall one afternoon....after a very long day....without our standard shutdown and maintenance check after four hours of flying or so.....as the blades coasted to a stop.....one of the forward blades kept right on going until it banged into the blade in front of it.
Seems we had lost one end of the Blade Damper in flight. No unusual symptoms noted until the two blades married up in front of us.
How many times did you ever have to hand pump the Utility Hydraulic System Accumulator to enough pressure to start the APU?
Droop Stop failures.....in gusty winds were always good sport too.
Having the Aft Wheel Steering go "Ape" on you can be fun too.....especially if you add a freshly "Oiled" taxiway and parking apron....with rain slicked PSP planking nicely done with a fresh coat of oil.....right as you begin to enter the Revetment that has scant clearance on either side at the best of times. Add Darkness and you get a situation that you would pay good money to experience at an amusement park. (As a Spectator from a safe distance).
Having the Aft Wheel Steering go "Ape" on you can be fun too.....especially if you add a freshly "Oiled" taxiway and parking apron....with rain slicked PSP planking nicely done with a fresh coat of oil.....right as you begin to enter the Revetment that has scant clearance on either side at the best of times. Add Darkness and you get a situation that you would pay good money to experience at an amusement park. (As a Spectator from a safe distance).
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,048
Received 2,920 Likes
on
1,249 Posts
Cranking an APU with the Blades folded......or shutting off the hydraulics with the Rigging Pins in place.....now who is being the Silly Boy?
The losing hydraulics with the pins in was due to a power being turned off in the hangar and a rapid attempt was made to remove them, though several were still in when it all settled on them, bending as it went.. If memory serves me correctly..
Ahh the hand pump, could understand the logic, out in field etc, but always thought a secondary electric pump would have been a godsend.
Last edited by NutLoose; 11th Aug 2013 at 23:10.
Once you have watched the Blade Jump upon Hydraulic Pressure being applied to the Flight Control systems following the APU Start.....One should tweak to the uniqueness of that evolution.
What really impressed me on the first flight I had in the Chinook was when we slapped the Engine Levers from Ground Idle to Flight Idle......I thought the Rotor Head had come off the machine!
For the unknowing....there be a very sudden....immediate....and dramatic increase in Rotor RPM......something to the tune of "Kowabunga Dude!" kind or RPM increase!
Electric Pump? Why my very dear fellow....that is what the rear cabin crew was for......right up until your finger slipped off the start switch or some other attributable finger error occurred. Odd how there was always one crewman perched in the companionway observed the cockpit antics at that point of the checklist.
What really impressed me on the first flight I had in the Chinook was when we slapped the Engine Levers from Ground Idle to Flight Idle......I thought the Rotor Head had come off the machine!
For the unknowing....there be a very sudden....immediate....and dramatic increase in Rotor RPM......something to the tune of "Kowabunga Dude!" kind or RPM increase!
Electric Pump? Why my very dear fellow....that is what the rear cabin crew was for......right up until your finger slipped off the start switch or some other attributable finger error occurred. Odd how there was always one crewman perched in the companionway observed the cockpit antics at that point of the checklist.
Last edited by SASless; 11th Aug 2013 at 23:22.
Just to hark back to the 'undue influence' on a BOI, I was the LM on a Herc when an MSP heavy drop platform hit the ducksbill at the back of the a/c as it was extracted. The BOI found that the transfer release cable had been manufactured incorrectly and was slightly too short despite having the correct markings on it, causing the contact with the ducksbill. This cable had been made by a civilian employee. His union would not let him speak to the BOI so a reason for his error was never established. When the report went up the 'system' it was returned with words to the effect that some service personnel must be found culpable. To his credit the President of the BOI refused and sent it back unaltered. The 'system ' then backed off.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,048
Received 2,920 Likes
on
1,249 Posts
A lot of Civilian companies will not talk to you on the grounds they can be sued, I had a splitter for a Turbo Charger on a new engine failed, luckily it didn't cause any harm, but it has been known for the gas flow to cut through engine bearers with the subsequent effect.. looking at the part one could immediately identify the fault, they had machined it with a 90 angle instead of a nice gentle curve, instantly causing a stress raiser where it sheared..
I returned the old one under warranty to the Aircraft Engine manufacturer and a new item arrived minus the crisp 90 machining... the only reason you know that they accepted liability is the fact they did not try to charge you for it. they would never tell you the part was faulty or incorrect as they would then be putting themselves in a position opening them up to legal action.
I returned the old one under warranty to the Aircraft Engine manufacturer and a new item arrived minus the crisp 90 machining... the only reason you know that they accepted liability is the fact they did not try to charge you for it. they would never tell you the part was faulty or incorrect as they would then be putting themselves in a position opening them up to legal action.
Tuc,
What was the explanation for the "incorrect installation of the Thrust Bearing"?
Did the Techs correctly follow the instructions of an incorrect Tech Document or did they make an incorrect installation ignoring correct data? Did it come from the Factory that way?
What was the explanation for the "incorrect installation of the Thrust Bearing"?
Did the Techs correctly follow the instructions of an incorrect Tech Document or did they make an incorrect installation ignoring correct data? Did it come from the Factory that way?