Reduction in Flying Pay on PVR

[Arthur's Wizard]

Although I have been aware for some time that my flying pay will half if I PVR, a recent conversation brought home just how unfair this rule is.

I was on a course recently with someone who will be leaving the services in the next few weeks and the subject of the reduction in flying pay came up. He pointed out that as he is on the PA spine and therefore doesn't receive 'flying pay', he will not be penalised at all. Compare this to myself who, on the enhanced rate, will lose approx £5000 (before tax) over the period of my PVR until my termination. We are both the same rank, we do very similar jobs and have similar experience. Is it right that one of us will lose 5K and the other will not lose a penny.

Unsurprisingly, I think this is unfair, but has anyone ever challenged it and if they have how far did they go? (if it has ever been challenged, I assume it was unsuccessful otherwise I guess we would all have known about it!)

[14greens]

not that i have checked if the information is correct, however i am led to believe that PVR is the only way out early now, NGR is no longer on the all singing all dancing JPA!
therefore the way of resigning as a right, with no drop in flying pay rate has been withdrawn

[Bannock]

With four years to pension I was offered a 5 year extension. Not sure what the future was holding I accepted. 5 sand pit tours later I decided enough was enough and decided to PVR at 22 year point. I wanted to leave the mob happy and proud of completing my engagement and take away some great memories.
I had my flying pay cut by 50% straight away and guess what ! sand pit here I come. My terminal leave starts the day I return.
Am I bitter about the way I have been treated after all this time ?
I will leave it up to you.

[B-Chops]

You put in the PVR you suffer the consequences - in my trade you don't get trained anymore - your choice!!! Cake and eat it comes to mind!

[sycamore]

Question is,is he PVR`ng,or retiring at a break point ? Why are you PVR`ng ? fed-up,no fun,going to fly for XXX or yyy? Why were you not on the `spine` if you`ve got similar experience,etc? What do you fly,assuming aircrew? How long have you been in? Why did you join in the first place ? If you are not committed to serving whatever you signed up to,then why should you get paid the same as everyone else who does ?How much are you getting-pay; at the moment,30,40,50k? or perhaps more ? Seems like you have`nt sussed out how to `organise` your career enough .Anyway,with a PVR it should be,` `My office,hat on, no c &b,here`s your clearance,and white feather,Clarance,24 hrs, good-bye`!

Harsh ??maybe,but remember...there are a lot of guys who gave a lot more,so you can have the choice to complain....and `wimp-out`!

Qualifications ?40 yrs,3 wars,3 crashes, a few medals,sense of humour-intact.....Syc.!!!

PS,I`ll bet you expected `Sympathy` !!!!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Any chance of one of the Int guys decoding the above ..........

[matty_w]

I'm guessing that Syc is Either a) Fj or b) ME.... Not very often I post on here but, well, you get my point!

If you work for air then, maybe, yeah, you serve your time, have a good laugh and crack on. Spare a thought for the 'other side' of the fence - funded by JHC but part of the RAF, (or vice versa depending upon the time of day!) I am willing to bet money on, that Arthur's Wizard comes from...

Seriously, life is different on either side of the fence... FACT!

[HEDP]

I am thinking some of you miss the point............

Two guys, both PVRing, one loses cash the other doesn't........

Its not about who stays in or even should he.....

Two guys, both leaving early for whatever reason, two different effects on pay until out............

The phrase RTFQ springs to mind......

In the specific case; fair or unfair is the question?

[Tiger_mate]

My office,hat on, no c &b,here`s your clearance,and white feather,Clarance,24 hrs, good-bye`!

Excellent idea, and then the CO could turn his own light off after giving himself a stiff talking to, for everybody else would have already gone. "Dear employer, I can be on your payrole tomorrow...."

White feather is a bit righteous from an ex-mil member though, for despite your medals, it is a very differant armed forces that we now live with.

As for the thread, it is no more unfair than having peers paid differant rates in the first place. Now what would be interesting is how long they are making you serve before collecting your 1250 off you. For departure durations also appear to be unfair amongst peers.

Once you have clicked the PVR button you cannot be sent on a previously unnotified OOA. You can only do an OOA if you had been notified before the PVR.

NGR can still be completed the old fashioned (paper) way via the Chief Clerk. A PVR can be rescinded, an NGR cannot. Once an NGR has been signed off, you have the departure date 18 months away that is set in stone. I have spoken to my Chf Clk about this very subject in the last 10 days.

However unfair life is, Good Luck with your future AW having bitten the bullet in the interim.

[Autorev]

HEDP,
Missing the point is all to common on these boards at the moment. It seems that a large section of users simply want to voice their own opinion regardless of relevance to the thread. So, instead of getting informed discussion and debate, all we get is petty narrow-minded sniping.

I guess that we need to remember that there are all types of serving and ex serving military that frequent this forum. This thread would appear to attract a lot of those who love the military so much they cannot countenance why anyone should be so disloyal as to wish to leave. However, some serving personnel also have a life outside the mob and due to changes in circumstances in that life, they are no longer willing to make the sacrifices they have previously.

Wizard
It certainly does seem unfair, although you and your oppo are serving under different terms and so reap the rewards or otherwise. It would also suggest that a challenge would be unlikely to succeed unless you could demonstrate a breach of employment law.
A peer of mine started a legal challenge to having to ammortise his 6 yrs post OCU. His flying trg had taken so long, through no fault of his own, that he had served nearly 5 yrs before completing his first OCU. After some very expensive legal advice he concluded that the reason that these challenges never seem to succeed is the length of time that they take to mount, makes them prohibitively expensive.

Bannock's example is unfortunately all too common. It is no surprise how many people leave feeling let down my the system that they have made such personal sacrifice for. A sad reflection of the state that we are in I'm affraid.

[[email protected]]

Arthurs Wizard - presumably you had the opportunity at some stage to transfer to PA and elected not to. If that is the case, you can hardly complain when someone else who did decide to change his terms of employment then benefits from this change, regardless of the fact you do the same job.

I agree that the reduction in Fg pay is a petty and unneccessary action but the policy has been transparent - as you say, you have known about it for a long time.

[Arthur's Wizard]

B-Chops, 1.4g, sycamore, et al,

Thanks for the input, very helpful!

For the record, I have served for 21 years, have been to the sandpit 9 times in the last 4.5 years, have 5 medals and I am leaving at my IPP. I had to PVR because I have an IRC. I couldn't have gone onto the PA Spine as I have never qualified for it...............I'm too young!! (no really!)

Hopefully, that will satisfy some of you who question my loyalty and/or moral fibre!

To those who tried to answer the orginal question, thank you. It appears that I will have to lump it.

[Ardua Nuff]

AW,

Similar time served, medals, wars and age.

My enhanced rate hasn't yet been halved (half PVR time done) - perhaps JPA is doing me a favour for once! Here's hoping.....

Loss of pension (signed over to 05 - why, oh why...) my biggest mistake.

AN

[nimblast]

AW,

I left on PVR last year, I expected my flying pay to be cut but JPA is so screwed up nothing was deducted, I kept expecting them to take it all back in one go, but it never happened.
Submit your PVR say nothing , you may be lucky like me.

[Brain Potter]

I entirely agree that the new regulations that cut Fg Pay in half on PVR are totally wrong. No other employer could get away with imposing such a change in conditions without extensive consultation and protest. This little amendment was brought in under the cloak of JPA with hardly a murmur from those it affects. The attitude of the "leadership" towards this frankly outrageous condition is "You are getting off the train - so who cares?" Ironically, as servicemen your only real form of protest against such conditions is to leave.

However, I think it is wrong to try to use the method of exit from PA spine as an comparison. Transfer to PA spine is by invitation and involves a significant change of terms and conditions. There is no flying pay as all the remuneration is salary. The PA spine guarantees service to 55 but gives no "options" before that time; the only way out is to PVR. Offering transfer to the PA spine is an incentive that allows the service to retain some experienced aviators who have already served the time that was expected, and any extra service they give is a bonus for the RAF. A punitive method of exit would severely reduce the likelihood of anyone signing on to PA spine, unless they are totally convinced that they will stay to 55 no matter what the service throws at them. I suggest that this latter category would be a very small indeed. The PA spine is trying to attract those who already know the pros and cons of life in the service and who will thoroughly consider all the small print. They are not just signing anything, like a wide-eyed 18 or 21-year old who is thinking only of the flying.

Arthur: I think you have every right to be aggrieved, but the true inequity is not the comparison with your PA spine colleagues, but with ground branches of equal pay - who give none of it up and walk away with much better pension. The real con is Flying Pay itself - there should simply be a different pay scale for aircrew that is properly pensioned and which can't have chunks knocked off at the whim of the beancounters.

PS: AN and nim - I have heard similar, but should it be advertised?

[Winch-control]

I also opted out in the last twelve month run up to the 22 yr point and was not penalised at all. Flying pay stayed the same...

[Role1a]

Another point being missed here is that Non PA Spine PVR (R = Release) PA spine PVR (R = Retirement). Perhaps that is the difference.

REF:AP 3393 and JSP 754.

R1a

[glad rag]

Post nine

To clear things up

from OP

quote

"He pointed out that as he is on the PA spine and therefore doesn't receive 'flying pay',"


OK

So as the "other" does not receive FP at all where is your argument?

[Chicken Leg]

"He pointed out that as he is on the PA spine and therefore doesn't receive 'flying pay',"


OK

So as the "other" does not receive FP at all where is your argument?

On the PA Spine, your flying pay is added to your basic pay and is paid as one amount as opposed to getting basic pay plus flying pay (two separate amounts). This means that when someone on PA Spine PVR's they don't have their flying pay halfed because they don't technically receive flying pay.

Does that make sense????!!!!!!

[glad rag]

Thank you, I now see the OP's argument was not only about the pvr losses but the "system" of hiding the allowance for PA Spine..................