Reduction in Flying Pay on PVR
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On the PA Spine, your flying pay is added to your basic pay and is paid as one amount as opposed to getting basic pay plus flying pay (two separate amounts).
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Okay....
Assuming that the original post isn't grossly misrepresenting anything (I'm not suggesting that - it's just a caveat) then I personally have a great deal of sympathy for a guy who has put his time in, gone repeatedly in harm's way, and is losing out simply because at one point he chose A instead of B.
Look at it this way - part way through your career you are asked to guess whether you will end up with several stars and a private jet, or end up with 10,000 hours in your log book. based on this guess you then stand to make out like a bandit, or lose hand over fist.
That's complete b*llocks - if you do the same job at the same rank then you should get the same pay and benefits, this sort of thing just makes it look like every now and then you get to buy a raffle ticket.
You have my sympathy - which, from a retired SNCO probably means you really deserve it as we aren't famous for sympathy, and seeing as SNCO pensions and benefits are correlated to the evening paper round and Tesco shelf stacker rates. What you get as you exit, especially after long service, should not be a lottery. Now ask me how I feel about flying pay not counting towards salary for pension purposes after drawing it for 20 years or so. (Except for the year the medics totally *****d my paperwork up).
My sympathy also for the way the usual suspects have posted to further illustrate how their daily timetable amounts to:
0600 - Get up
0601 - Be grumpy, attain pain in the @ss status
2200 - Off to bed with Ovaltine, and 'How to be grumpy' sleep hypnosis tape.
Dave
ps - in light of NCA FS getting more than a groundy Sqn Ldr - as an ex NCO aircrew FS (NCA as you now call them <g>) I fail to see any problem with this at all... we are, after all, contrasting highly treained professionals with...ooops...better stop here.... (I'm grinning, honest, it's a wind up...) As for masters - well, anyome who can walk on water WHILST chewing gum always gets my vote!
Edited to correct spelling and add a PS in light of later posts...
Assuming that the original post isn't grossly misrepresenting anything (I'm not suggesting that - it's just a caveat) then I personally have a great deal of sympathy for a guy who has put his time in, gone repeatedly in harm's way, and is losing out simply because at one point he chose A instead of B.
Look at it this way - part way through your career you are asked to guess whether you will end up with several stars and a private jet, or end up with 10,000 hours in your log book. based on this guess you then stand to make out like a bandit, or lose hand over fist.
That's complete b*llocks - if you do the same job at the same rank then you should get the same pay and benefits, this sort of thing just makes it look like every now and then you get to buy a raffle ticket.
You have my sympathy - which, from a retired SNCO probably means you really deserve it as we aren't famous for sympathy, and seeing as SNCO pensions and benefits are correlated to the evening paper round and Tesco shelf stacker rates. What you get as you exit, especially after long service, should not be a lottery. Now ask me how I feel about flying pay not counting towards salary for pension purposes after drawing it for 20 years or so. (Except for the year the medics totally *****d my paperwork up).
My sympathy also for the way the usual suspects have posted to further illustrate how their daily timetable amounts to:
0600 - Get up
0601 - Be grumpy, attain pain in the @ss status
2200 - Off to bed with Ovaltine, and 'How to be grumpy' sleep hypnosis tape.
Dave
ps - in light of NCA FS getting more than a groundy Sqn Ldr - as an ex NCO aircrew FS (NCA as you now call them <g>) I fail to see any problem with this at all... we are, after all, contrasting highly treained professionals with...ooops...better stop here.... (I'm grinning, honest, it's a wind up...) As for masters - well, anyome who can walk on water WHILST chewing gum always gets my vote!
Edited to correct spelling and add a PS in light of later posts...
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Arthurs Wizard,
As usual all the w**kers who have nothing constructive to say just start trying to incite an argument - don't stoop to their pathetic levels - they know who they are.
They are too stupid to see the contradiction and rather than talk in a sensible way they sound like five year olds " well in my trade...blah blah blah......you knew what you were doing........blah blah blah.......cake and eat it....blah blah blah"
For f***s sake grow up! If something is wrong it is wrong so have the fibre to say so - even if by resolving it you will not directly benefit !!!!
If no-one speaks up about anything then nothing will change.
Morons.
When I think that we all look out for each other through thick and thin, in a sandpit somewhere, on Comp grounds, on Aeromed evacs and then read some of the comments posted by certain individuals........it makes me hope they would turn up at the back of my aeroplane in some sh1thole somewhere asking for a lift home........and guess what.........
As usual all the w**kers who have nothing constructive to say just start trying to incite an argument - don't stoop to their pathetic levels - they know who they are.
They are too stupid to see the contradiction and rather than talk in a sensible way they sound like five year olds " well in my trade...blah blah blah......you knew what you were doing........blah blah blah.......cake and eat it....blah blah blah"
For f***s sake grow up! If something is wrong it is wrong so have the fibre to say so - even if by resolving it you will not directly benefit !!!!
If no-one speaks up about anything then nothing will change.
Morons.
When I think that we all look out for each other through thick and thin, in a sandpit somewhere, on Comp grounds, on Aeromed evacs and then read some of the comments posted by certain individuals........it makes me hope they would turn up at the back of my aeroplane in some sh1thole somewhere asking for a lift home........and guess what.........
I couldn't have gone onto the PA Spine as I have never qualified for it...............I'm too young!! (no really!)
AW
If you never "qualified" for PAS, how can you possibly have a grievance. You are on different TOS. You are not comparing like for like. The reduction in FP has been around for many years and as you say you were aware when you PVR'd (your choice). If you don't like the reduction, reverse your PVR, hope you get "offered" (you don't automatically qualify) PAS, then PVR.
Again it was your choice.
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In terms of financial 'penalty' you may well find that you'll be far better off in a very short space of time.
£5K will probably be money very well 'spent'.
Whatever; good luck!
£5K will probably be money very well 'spent'.
Whatever; good luck!
So what is the minimum (legal) time between PVRing and leaving the service ? ie when was the last time anyone wrote a letter to his/her CO politely saying they will be poking off in 30 days ? If so what were the consequences.
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Flying Pay & PVR The Story Continues......
Clearly 9.81m/s/s is on a personal crusade to resolve every Air Force issue without saying anything constructive, or as a balanced opinion.
He or she has got all the attributes of an aspiring Snr Off probably akin to the main man at Air Cmmd (Oh No!!), but clearly lets him or herself down by suggesting that certain comments are being posted to incite argument as opposed to provoking argument.
What this person fails to realise is that non-Aircrew personnel who spend considerably more time 'on the ground in theatre' then he or she; grow tired of the old Chestnut about flying pay...incentives...retention bonuses..,.etc. PVR rate amongst these people is at an all time high as they don't get anything anywhere near a daily rate of FP and when they see the threads of this FP discussion going from one extreme to another, you can understand their despair and frustration.
If this person is to single-handedly resolve all these issues then I suggest the following:
a. Avoid swearing in text, then you may have some credibility.
b. Avoid expletives such as 'Moron' because that 'Moron' might just save your life one day either in the Air or on the Ground.
c. Avoid comments to suggest that you can decide the fate of people who may or may not fly in your aircraft when their lives are at risk. (I'm assuming you have a balanced conscience)
d. Do a straw poll around all the Cmmd's, Stn's and Diplomatic posts. Ascertain how many Aircrew are still drawing FP when they havn't flown for years and avoid the prospect of going back on a Sqn like the Plague. Remove their FP (you did suggest that if something is wrong do something about it.. Well here is a golden oppotunity to do that. Perhaps that money saved could be an incentive to Aircrew like yourself to remain flying and Not PVR). Silly me this is the Air Force were are talking about!
e. As this is an Open Forum, ie anybody in the world can see it, then consider how you set your personal stall out as readers might misconstrue your opinions and credibility with reality........
f. Finally have you thought of swapping your flying suit for a Superman outfit if you think you can save the 'Inner Sanctum' of the Aircrew FP world without financial casualties.....?
He or she has got all the attributes of an aspiring Snr Off probably akin to the main man at Air Cmmd (Oh No!!), but clearly lets him or herself down by suggesting that certain comments are being posted to incite argument as opposed to provoking argument.
What this person fails to realise is that non-Aircrew personnel who spend considerably more time 'on the ground in theatre' then he or she; grow tired of the old Chestnut about flying pay...incentives...retention bonuses..,.etc. PVR rate amongst these people is at an all time high as they don't get anything anywhere near a daily rate of FP and when they see the threads of this FP discussion going from one extreme to another, you can understand their despair and frustration.
If this person is to single-handedly resolve all these issues then I suggest the following:
a. Avoid swearing in text, then you may have some credibility.
b. Avoid expletives such as 'Moron' because that 'Moron' might just save your life one day either in the Air or on the Ground.
c. Avoid comments to suggest that you can decide the fate of people who may or may not fly in your aircraft when their lives are at risk. (I'm assuming you have a balanced conscience)
d. Do a straw poll around all the Cmmd's, Stn's and Diplomatic posts. Ascertain how many Aircrew are still drawing FP when they havn't flown for years and avoid the prospect of going back on a Sqn like the Plague. Remove their FP (you did suggest that if something is wrong do something about it.. Well here is a golden oppotunity to do that. Perhaps that money saved could be an incentive to Aircrew like yourself to remain flying and Not PVR). Silly me this is the Air Force were are talking about!
e. As this is an Open Forum, ie anybody in the world can see it, then consider how you set your personal stall out as readers might misconstrue your opinions and credibility with reality........
f. Finally have you thought of swapping your flying suit for a Superman outfit if you think you can save the 'Inner Sanctum' of the Aircrew FP world without financial casualties.....?
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Just a thought but don't forget that if you (as an officer) PVR, you will take a 'hit' of a reduction in your pension and terminal grant despite having completed a full pensionable engagement. I think it's somewhere in the region of 5-8%. It only affects officers though.
Last edited by Mr Busby; 1st Jun 2008 at 11:16. Reason: refining it
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VR & Busby: With reference to the below:
and
The PVR rate is the standard pension rate. You get an extra percentage for completing your full term of service as a retention measure, making it perfectly fair.
However, even factoring this 'loss' in on PVR you may find that staying in to your full term is financially punitive compared to leaving on PVR. It's certainly true for those below 32ish.
The bonus of going early is you get to work for a professional outfit rather than this bankrupt organisation.
you will take a 'hit' of a reduction ..... somewhere in the region of 5-8%.
thought that was illegal? I THought they couldnt penalise your pension that you had already earned?
However, even factoring this 'loss' in on PVR you may find that staying in to your full term is financially punitive compared to leaving on PVR. It's certainly true for those below 32ish.
The bonus of going early is you get to work for a professional outfit rather than this bankrupt organisation.
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Farfrompuken
However you dress it up, there are two rates of pension; one for having elected to leave on PVR terms and one for completing your full period of service and even if you had served the same period of time, there is a negative effect on your pension if you PVR.
As an example, using the AFPS pension codes for 2006/7 (retiring after 31 Mar 06) as an example, for a Flt Lt leaving after 16 years of reckonable service on normal retirement terms, he/she would receive an immediate pension of £11192. However, if the same officer had decided to PVR after 16 years reckonable service (ie they were signed on to complete say 20 years) they would only receive £9830 as an immediate pension (ie 12% less than if they hadn't PVR'd) and their terminal grant would also be affected by a similar amount.
The same table also shows figures for PA (or Spec Aircrew as it appears in the list). The same rule is not applied to 'ORs'. Once they have completed a pensionable engagement, they qualify for their pension and PVR has no affect on the amount they receive.
The regulations (AP3392 & QRs also used to contain an interesting piece about officers resigning their commission not being entitled to any retired pay but that they could receive a sum at the discretion of the Defence Council not exceeding the PVR rate!
However you dress it up, there are two rates of pension; one for having elected to leave on PVR terms and one for completing your full period of service and even if you had served the same period of time, there is a negative effect on your pension if you PVR.
As an example, using the AFPS pension codes for 2006/7 (retiring after 31 Mar 06) as an example, for a Flt Lt leaving after 16 years of reckonable service on normal retirement terms, he/she would receive an immediate pension of £11192. However, if the same officer had decided to PVR after 16 years reckonable service (ie they were signed on to complete say 20 years) they would only receive £9830 as an immediate pension (ie 12% less than if they hadn't PVR'd) and their terminal grant would also be affected by a similar amount.
The same table also shows figures for PA (or Spec Aircrew as it appears in the list). The same rule is not applied to 'ORs'. Once they have completed a pensionable engagement, they qualify for their pension and PVR has no affect on the amount they receive.
The regulations (AP3392 & QRs also used to contain an interesting piece about officers resigning their commission not being entitled to any retired pay but that they could receive a sum at the discretion of the Defence Council not exceeding the PVR rate!
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Beware....
If you PVR on the new pension scheme (AFPS05), you get nothing until 65 (except a resettlement grant) despite having done 16 years+ service.
My biggest mistake.
AN
If you PVR on the new pension scheme (AFPS05), you get nothing until 65 (except a resettlement grant) despite having done 16 years+ service.
My biggest mistake.
AN
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I don't like getting drawn into one way arguments but here are some advice/thoughts for TENNE :
1. If Non aircrew are tired of the old Flying Pay chestnut then why don't you decide not to read the Military Aircrew threads on PPRUNE ?
2. You are obviously new to PPRUNE - your first thread is an interesting one - so you obviously do not recognise the fact that some callsigns ( you do'nt mind me using the word callsigns do you - Top Gun and all that - aircrew again ) seem to enjoy inciting ( not provoking ) argument - you will get to see the pattern, you just need to get some time in as they say.
3. You imply that I have something against non-aircrew types by implying that I can decide their fate in some Godly manner - careful fella !!! I can't do my job without them, my best friends are them and they are often forgotten and undervalued - I'll take flak but not like that and not from you!!!
4. I have no stall to set out, no agenda. I work with some brilliant people and every day see more and more of our guys and girls doing things way beyond what is required in terms of skill, bravery and commitment. Families suffer at home, friends depart. I would like to see our personnel treated fairly and more importantly consistently across all trades regardless of job. So that is the nearest thing I have to having a stall - I get a little angry at times when people deliberately talk crap to merely stir the pot in an obvious manner - my language sometimes may not be to everyone's ( even my own ) taste - and for that I apologise - but that is a little bit of passion creeping in - I do not apologise for the emotion.
5. Finally you warn me of setting myself up and being misconstrued in my views - well I am not obliged to explain myself on a public forum to you but I am........ But perhaps you should re-read your post - it certainly implies that you do not like Aircrew - not saying that is the case but that is how it reads - be careful or you will end up sounding like many of the others on here.
1. If Non aircrew are tired of the old Flying Pay chestnut then why don't you decide not to read the Military Aircrew threads on PPRUNE ?
2. You are obviously new to PPRUNE - your first thread is an interesting one - so you obviously do not recognise the fact that some callsigns ( you do'nt mind me using the word callsigns do you - Top Gun and all that - aircrew again ) seem to enjoy inciting ( not provoking ) argument - you will get to see the pattern, you just need to get some time in as they say.
3. You imply that I have something against non-aircrew types by implying that I can decide their fate in some Godly manner - careful fella !!! I can't do my job without them, my best friends are them and they are often forgotten and undervalued - I'll take flak but not like that and not from you!!!
4. I have no stall to set out, no agenda. I work with some brilliant people and every day see more and more of our guys and girls doing things way beyond what is required in terms of skill, bravery and commitment. Families suffer at home, friends depart. I would like to see our personnel treated fairly and more importantly consistently across all trades regardless of job. So that is the nearest thing I have to having a stall - I get a little angry at times when people deliberately talk crap to merely stir the pot in an obvious manner - my language sometimes may not be to everyone's ( even my own ) taste - and for that I apologise - but that is a little bit of passion creeping in - I do not apologise for the emotion.
5. Finally you warn me of setting myself up and being misconstrued in my views - well I am not obliged to explain myself on a public forum to you but I am........ But perhaps you should re-read your post - it certainly implies that you do not like Aircrew - not saying that is the case but that is how it reads - be careful or you will end up sounding like many of the others on here.
Ardua Nuff,
Not sure where you get your information from, AFPS details were widely enough advertsied when it first came in, and can still be accessed via MOD intranet.
Under AFPS you qualify for a 'full' pension after 18 years/reaching forty, whichever is the latter (is this where you lose out?).
Yes, if you leave after 18/40 but before 55 you don't get a pension, but you do get Early Departure Payments, which arrive every month - and look remarkably like a pension in all but name.
All the details are too long winded to go into here, and it was done to death on pprune when AFPS05 first came in.
The differences I can see are that if you leave before you have qualified for a 'full' pension, then on AFPS75 your preserved pension cuts in at 60, while in the case of AFPS05 the preserved pension starts at 65.
Not sure where you get your information from, AFPS details were widely enough advertsied when it first came in, and can still be accessed via MOD intranet.
Under AFPS you qualify for a 'full' pension after 18 years/reaching forty, whichever is the latter (is this where you lose out?).
Yes, if you leave after 18/40 but before 55 you don't get a pension, but you do get Early Departure Payments, which arrive every month - and look remarkably like a pension in all but name.
All the details are too long winded to go into here, and it was done to death on pprune when AFPS05 first came in.
The differences I can see are that if you leave before you have qualified for a 'full' pension, then on AFPS75 your preserved pension cuts in at 60, while in the case of AFPS05 the preserved pension starts at 65.
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Thanks Biggus
You are correct. Unfortunately my 16+ years served is literally that, 16 years + months. My 18/40 point defaults to 40 due to my age and that, I'm afraid, it too long for me. On AFPS75, I would have qualified for an option point.
You live and learn.
Seems like I can make up the difference this side of the fence quickly enough anyway.
AN
P.S. Another month of Enhanced - Thank you JPA!
You are correct. Unfortunately my 16+ years served is literally that, 16 years + months. My 18/40 point defaults to 40 due to my age and that, I'm afraid, it too long for me. On AFPS75, I would have qualified for an option point.
You live and learn.
Seems like I can make up the difference this side of the fence quickly enough anyway.
AN
P.S. Another month of Enhanced - Thank you JPA!
