Soldiers Need Loans to eat
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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Soldiers Need Loans to eat
A damning indictment of PAYD, amidst other things....
The Independent: Exclusive report: Soldiers need loans to eat, report reveals
Senior figures react angrily to damning indictment of life inside the Army. Jonathan Owen and Brian Brady investigate
A highly sensitive internal report into the state of the British Army has revealed that many soldiers are living in poverty. Some are so poor that they are unable to eat and are forced to rely on emergency food voucher schemes set up by the Ministry of Defence (MoD).
Some of Britain's most senior military figures reacted angrily yesterday to the revelations in the report, criticising the Government's treatment of its fighting forces.
The disturbing findings outlined in the briefing team report written for Sir Richard Dannatt, the Chief of the General Staff, include an admission that many junior officers are being forced to leave the Army because they simply cannot afford to stay on.
Pressure from an undermanned army is "having a serious impact on retention in infantry battalions", with nearly half of all soldiers unable to take all their annual leave as they try to cover the gaps.
The analysis, described by General Dannatt as "a comprehensive and accurate portrayal of the views and concerns of the Army at large", states: "More and more single-income soldiers in the UK are now close to the UK government definition of poverty." It reveals that "a number of soldiers were not eating properly because they had run out of money by the end of the month". Commanders are attempting to tackle the problem through "Hungry Soldier" schemes, under which destitute soldiers are given loans to enable them to eat.
The scheme symbolises a change from the tradition of soldiers getting three square meals a day for free. Now hard-up soldiers have to fill out a form which entitles them to a voucher. The cost is deducted from their future wages, adding to the problems of soldiers on low pay........
The Independent: Exclusive report: Soldiers need loans to eat, report reveals
Senior figures react angrily to damning indictment of life inside the Army. Jonathan Owen and Brian Brady investigate
A highly sensitive internal report into the state of the British Army has revealed that many soldiers are living in poverty. Some are so poor that they are unable to eat and are forced to rely on emergency food voucher schemes set up by the Ministry of Defence (MoD).
Some of Britain's most senior military figures reacted angrily yesterday to the revelations in the report, criticising the Government's treatment of its fighting forces.
The disturbing findings outlined in the briefing team report written for Sir Richard Dannatt, the Chief of the General Staff, include an admission that many junior officers are being forced to leave the Army because they simply cannot afford to stay on.
Pressure from an undermanned army is "having a serious impact on retention in infantry battalions", with nearly half of all soldiers unable to take all their annual leave as they try to cover the gaps.
The analysis, described by General Dannatt as "a comprehensive and accurate portrayal of the views and concerns of the Army at large", states: "More and more single-income soldiers in the UK are now close to the UK government definition of poverty." It reveals that "a number of soldiers were not eating properly because they had run out of money by the end of the month". Commanders are attempting to tackle the problem through "Hungry Soldier" schemes, under which destitute soldiers are given loans to enable them to eat.
The scheme symbolises a change from the tradition of soldiers getting three square meals a day for free. Now hard-up soldiers have to fill out a form which entitles them to a voucher. The cost is deducted from their future wages, adding to the problems of soldiers on low pay........
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Dont worry, we have got an economy based on low unemployment, low
interest rates, and solid growth.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...5/11/cnboe.xml
Roight. So we are cutting rates when inflation is going to go above 3% (yeah right, maybe if you eat widescreen TVs and dont use a car). Looks as if we are headed in the same direction as Labour took us in the 1970's, and we all know how that went...
Labour gave us "economic stability" at the cost of far more severe downturn that we are about to experience. Now where did I put my tin hat?
interest rates, and solid growth.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...5/11/cnboe.xml
Mervyn King, the Bank's Governor, is poised to unveil new forecasts showing that the Consumer Price Index (CPI) will rise above 3 per cent over the next six months, forcing him to write a letter of explanation to the Chancellor. In a further blow to Alistair Darling's credibility, the Bank will cut its economic growth forecasts for both this year and next. The changes will spark fears of "stagflation" - weak growth twinned with high inflation - and will be unveiled in the Bank's quarterly Inflation Report on Wednesday, which will set the tone for the economy for the next three months. They come amid warnings that Britain now faces a US-style housing crash, with plummeting prices and rising repossessions.
Labour gave us "economic stability" at the cost of far more severe downturn that we are about to experience. Now where did I put my tin hat?
Right, as I type this I know I am going to be 'flamed' big time for doing so, but......
I read some time ago in SROs for an RAF base that was one of the first to try PAYD of problems of airman running out of money at the end of the month, and being unable to feed themselves. However, in the case of many single young airman it was a case of mismanaging their money, and failing to budget. Before PAYD, for a young airman living in the block he knew he would always have a roof over his head, and be fed 3 meals a day. So all his pay was spending money, to go on his XR3i, gadgets, DVDs, and of course beer and socializing. If he ran out of money 3 weeks into a month he just didn't go out, and stayed in the block watching DVDs, etc - but he still got fed!! Now, with PAYD, if an airman runs out of money after 3 weeks he doesn't eat!!
So, some, and I mean some, of the problem may be down to young airman/soldiers/sailors failing to budget properly over the month.
I must state at this point, that I am not saying for one second that junior ranks in the military are not badly paid - I happen to believe they are. Just that proper budgeting, which many young people are not very good at (my kids certainly aren't) is part of the problem at the moment - their culture needs to change.
Standing by for the incoming!!!
I read some time ago in SROs for an RAF base that was one of the first to try PAYD of problems of airman running out of money at the end of the month, and being unable to feed themselves. However, in the case of many single young airman it was a case of mismanaging their money, and failing to budget. Before PAYD, for a young airman living in the block he knew he would always have a roof over his head, and be fed 3 meals a day. So all his pay was spending money, to go on his XR3i, gadgets, DVDs, and of course beer and socializing. If he ran out of money 3 weeks into a month he just didn't go out, and stayed in the block watching DVDs, etc - but he still got fed!! Now, with PAYD, if an airman runs out of money after 3 weeks he doesn't eat!!
So, some, and I mean some, of the problem may be down to young airman/soldiers/sailors failing to budget properly over the month.
I must state at this point, that I am not saying for one second that junior ranks in the military are not badly paid - I happen to believe they are. Just that proper budgeting, which many young people are not very good at (my kids certainly aren't) is part of the problem at the moment - their culture needs to change.
Standing by for the incoming!!!
The CPI is another statistic which is a damn lie. It's based on a 'basket' of goods which includes of all things a DVD player. I live overseas and send my kids to school in the UK. The fees have been risng at about 7% a year which I reckon is probably the true inflation rate. My mum who lives in the UK says a brand of pasta she normally buys has gone from 49p to 99p a packet.
When the Government are basing their economic policy and public sector pay on flawed data, what do you expect?
When the Government are basing their economic policy and public sector pay on flawed data, what do you expect?
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Biggus,
I hate to say this but I'm with you. It's the younger lads (and lasses) with cash in their pockets for the first time who are the worse offenders. Then again, its up to the chain of command to tell it to them straight that they should budget for nosh.
PAYD has made my life easier as a bit of an itinerant across the country. Means I can put in expenses for actual costs rather than guessing, which has to be value for money for the UK tax payers.
I hate to say this but I'm with you. It's the younger lads (and lasses) with cash in their pockets for the first time who are the worse offenders. Then again, its up to the chain of command to tell it to them straight that they should budget for nosh.
PAYD has made my life easier as a bit of an itinerant across the country. Means I can put in expenses for actual costs rather than guessing, which has to be value for money for the UK tax payers.
Red On, Green On
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The fees have been risng at about 7% a year which I reckon is probably the true inflation rate.
All three went/are in the UK state system, which luckily suited/s them well.
Agree with Biggus - it's a budgeting thing. There's a solution though - using a payment card that's topped up each month before wages are paid into the bank, by an amount that equals say 80% meals per month. If the lad/lass builds up excess credit on the card, they can get a refund, again through the pay system, always ensuring they have credit for a month of meals on the card.
Champagne anyone...?
Biggus is completely correct but misses the underlying crux of the problem. This is just another example of how the fundamentals of the military covenant are being eroded by petty penny pinching by people who have no concept of what military service is all about.
At it's very basic level the State contracts a young man or woman to do it's bidding in wars various but in return it promises to provide basic food and shelter for said recruit. Those recruits are often very young and the military's responsibility goes far beyond just giving them a uniform and a gun. In return for the opportunity to leave one's legs in Helmand etc the military/Govt have a duty to ensure that all it's employees are cared for. The provision of three basic meals a day is fundamental to that duty. It costs cock all in the grand scheme of things and to say otherwise is just crass.
I have no problem with PAYD in the Cpls, Sgts & O's Mess - I still think it undermines a fundamental aspect of the whole military "deal" but realistically if you can't manage yourself into finding £3 a day for food then you shouldn't be holding the rank. That said, we have a responsibility to look after the junior ranks and help them manage their lives.
Remember folks, we in the RAF are rather "spoilt" with a generally well educated and qualified OR cadre - it's your average, poorly educated junior army recruit who's being hit by this.
Edit: a_a has the solution
Genius, problem solved, lets go back to moaning about other stuff! 
At it's very basic level the State contracts a young man or woman to do it's bidding in wars various but in return it promises to provide basic food and shelter for said recruit. Those recruits are often very young and the military's responsibility goes far beyond just giving them a uniform and a gun. In return for the opportunity to leave one's legs in Helmand etc the military/Govt have a duty to ensure that all it's employees are cared for. The provision of three basic meals a day is fundamental to that duty. It costs cock all in the grand scheme of things and to say otherwise is just crass.
I have no problem with PAYD in the Cpls, Sgts & O's Mess - I still think it undermines a fundamental aspect of the whole military "deal" but realistically if you can't manage yourself into finding £3 a day for food then you shouldn't be holding the rank. That said, we have a responsibility to look after the junior ranks and help them manage their lives.
Remember folks, we in the RAF are rather "spoilt" with a generally well educated and qualified OR cadre - it's your average, poorly educated junior army recruit who's being hit by this.
Edit: a_a has the solution
Genius, problem solved, lets go back to moaning about other stuff!
The problem is that the MP's (them in Parliament) get cheap subsidised meals, couple that with their paid for second homes and chubby Prescotts extra £4000 per year for food, there is no money left to keep the old system going.
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Did I miss something in the pay review board's report. When PAYD was brought in, did the airmen's (and other's) pay go up to compensate. If not, PAYD was a pay cut and the airmen had already committed themselves to repaying the HP on his XR3i and other gadgets. I say airmen because they will have the least spare cash floating around, but it applies to all ranks.
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That said, we have a responsibility to look after the junior ranks and help them manage their lives.
That is harsh on the JRs. I know plenty of SNCOs and Officers who can not manage their finances properly. One was a pilot and was in dept to the tune of £40k.
While we should look after each other some people are just too stupid to listen these days.
Champagne anyone...?
That is harsh on the JRs
Officers and SNCOs who can't manage their finances isn't the issue here.
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To some extent, we have brought this on ourselves - PAYD (or Pay as you Starve) was brought in largely at the behest of our own people, complaining that they are having to pay 7-days per wk when the vast majority clear-off every weekend and the jockstrappers only eat 2 meals a day. A straightforward reduction in charges (ie by paying only for meals taken) terrified the beancounters as it would have removed the disgraceful situation where part of the previous charges that paid for Operational Feeding. Also, charging for 21 meals a week meant that there would always be an excess, whereas charging only for meals taken would have been bound to leave the kitty in deficit.
I have said before that I didn't understand why a Trial was entered into that couldn't be abandoned when it didn't work. I am at one of the units and it is absolutely CRAP; it was pretty poor in the early stages, but when the Contractor realised that no profit was being made, changes were made to ensure the absolute minimum was provided. I am told the OM is little better than a transport cafe. OK so the Trial failed - can we go back? Err no, because (as with JPA and several other great ideas) the savings have already been taken.
Coming back to the essential point about our people though, this has always been a concern, but how do you start monitoring closely the troops under your command who live in the blocks if you aren't going to do the same for the 18-yr-old SAC who is married and living in their own house?
I think the problem may have more to do with how the money is taken than the PAYD itself - if our people just signed for the meals and the money was taken the following mth, I suspect few would starve, but no doubt some accountant will tell me this is against some law or other.
STH
I have said before that I didn't understand why a Trial was entered into that couldn't be abandoned when it didn't work. I am at one of the units and it is absolutely CRAP; it was pretty poor in the early stages, but when the Contractor realised that no profit was being made, changes were made to ensure the absolute minimum was provided. I am told the OM is little better than a transport cafe. OK so the Trial failed - can we go back? Err no, because (as with JPA and several other great ideas) the savings have already been taken.
Coming back to the essential point about our people though, this has always been a concern, but how do you start monitoring closely the troops under your command who live in the blocks if you aren't going to do the same for the 18-yr-old SAC who is married and living in their own house?
I think the problem may have more to do with how the money is taken than the PAYD itself - if our people just signed for the meals and the money was taken the following mth, I suspect few would starve, but no doubt some accountant will tell me this is against some law or other.
STH
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RAF Shawbury Station Handbook 8th Edition (undated) approx circa 78
YOUR OFFICER
Remember that the Officer in Charge of your section takes a personal interest in you, and he is the man to whom you should look for advice when you have problems. He is interested in your barrack accomodation, your food, your sport and recreation, and your welfare. Do not hesitate to speak to him immediately if you have a problem. If he cannot sort it out, he will see that you are put in contact with the right person to help you.
Inside back cover
The useful life of this booklet is intended to be about a year...
Final point - this booklet is NOT an official Service publication..
How times have changed, yet there are many who advocate a Service Ethos nowadays lacking from the time of this publication. Perhaps a 'youngster' may wish to rewrite the above paragraph pertinent to todays military ethos, but please, no txt spk m8
YOUR OFFICER
Remember that the Officer in Charge of your section takes a personal interest in you, and he is the man to whom you should look for advice when you have problems. He is interested in your barrack accomodation, your food, your sport and recreation, and your welfare. Do not hesitate to speak to him immediately if you have a problem. If he cannot sort it out, he will see that you are put in contact with the right person to help you.
Inside back cover
The useful life of this booklet is intended to be about a year...
Final point - this booklet is NOT an official Service publication..
How times have changed, yet there are many who advocate a Service Ethos nowadays lacking from the time of this publication. Perhaps a 'youngster' may wish to rewrite the above paragraph pertinent to todays military ethos, but please, no txt spk m8
I've had the misfortune to eat in a PAYD mess, and my big problem with it was that the quality of the core meal was awful - there was no way you could have even a remotely healthy diet during a long stay. The contractor doesn't seem obliged to provide healthy food, just food, therefore chips and cat food will meet the requirements. If you want your 5 a day you have to pay extra,every day, and that takes you over the monthly cost of what you were paying out of your wages before it came in. Is there anyone out there with the B***S to reverse this programme and feed us all properly? It's that person that should get the OBEs, not the idiots that brought it in in the first place.
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It is perhaps worth explaining at this point that the 'Core Menu' is that which is provided for the same price as used to be paid under the old system. To quote the Navy News:
A 'full-cooked breakfast doesn't include tea, coffee, toast or fruit juice. Oh and you could have 6 items but only one of each (I believe that's now been reduced to 5).
In practice, the choice is slim and it compares very poorly (nutritionally) with that served to prisoners! I lived in the Mess for about 10 weeks last year; on more than one occasion I went in for dinner and left without eating because of the menu. Oh, and it was the only time in 19 years of service that I've sent food back to the kitchen for being so crap.
STH
“Core meals are an important element of PAYD – for the amount of money you paid the month before PAYD came in you should be able to obtain the required food of the required nutritional value,” said Lt Cdr John Cunane, Deputy Base Supply Officer at Culdrose.
“The core meal is a full cooked breakfast, a two-course lunch and a three-course evening meal, which you will be able to buy for £3.38 per day as a single liver-in.
“The core meal is a full cooked breakfast, a two-course lunch and a three-course evening meal, which you will be able to buy for £3.38 per day as a single liver-in.
In practice, the choice is slim and it compares very poorly (nutritionally) with that served to prisoners! I lived in the Mess for about 10 weeks last year; on more than one occasion I went in for dinner and left without eating because of the menu. Oh, and it was the only time in 19 years of service that I've sent food back to the kitchen for being so crap.
STH
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I do sympathise with people having to put up with this crap... but mainly from the point of view that the food is so bloody awful under PAYD. It always seemed rather unfair that I had to pay a flat rate for my food and got no credit for any missed meals.
Having had JRs in my division who still manage to go overdrawn when the only outgoing that they can put down on the cheque bouncers form is their mobile phone, I wonder if PAYD might actually have a beneficial effect in the long run? In that perhaps it will teach some financial responsibility to those who lack it (of all ranks and rates). There are a large number of people in the services who are happy for the system to take responsibility for their lives and effectively become institutionalised - perhaps a dose of the real world when you're not on ops might be a good thing.
Just a thought, but I'm standing by...
Having had JRs in my division who still manage to go overdrawn when the only outgoing that they can put down on the cheque bouncers form is their mobile phone, I wonder if PAYD might actually have a beneficial effect in the long run? In that perhaps it will teach some financial responsibility to those who lack it (of all ranks and rates). There are a large number of people in the services who are happy for the system to take responsibility for their lives and effectively become institutionalised - perhaps a dose of the real world when you're not on ops might be a good thing.
Just a thought, but I'm standing by...
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You could argue that the reason young men and women are starving is because of the system...but then again, we are part of the system.
How many of you can honestly say that you have sat down with the men under your command and discussed their finances? I remember once talking to one of my guys (who was hopelessly overdrawn) how to manage a bank account. He remarked that he couldn't possibly be overdrawn as he had 6 cheques left in his cheque book !!!!!!!
It is the Officers who should feel ashamed not the MOD.
How many of you can honestly say that you have sat down with the men under your command and discussed their finances? I remember once talking to one of my guys (who was hopelessly overdrawn) how to manage a bank account. He remarked that he couldn't possibly be overdrawn as he had 6 cheques left in his cheque book !!!!!!!
It is the Officers who should feel ashamed not the MOD.
What people really wanted was not PAYD, just some fairness in the system by enabling people to separate food from accommodation charges so they didn't pay for food when they weren't in barracks etc. After all, the RAF is quick to claim back anything it believes you owe - whether you do or not - so why shouldn't it be the other way round too?
However, I see under the changes of 1 Apr that this seems to now be an option if you are away for over 24hrs and put a leave pass in in advance to state as much. If we can do this now, why couldn't we have just done it in the first place instead of going down this god-awful PAYD route which will only end in tears and no doubt a legal case when a junior under training falls over due to malnutrition.
The real test of this will be if people stay in SLA over the weekend but choose not to eat in the mess because they are out all day; if the capability exists to stop food charges for the day in this case, then I cannot see how PAYD can ever be implemented as the system will have shown it to have been superceded by a simple change of regs.
However, I see under the changes of 1 Apr that this seems to now be an option if you are away for over 24hrs and put a leave pass in in advance to state as much. If we can do this now, why couldn't we have just done it in the first place instead of going down this god-awful PAYD route which will only end in tears and no doubt a legal case when a junior under training falls over due to malnutrition.
The real test of this will be if people stay in SLA over the weekend but choose not to eat in the mess because they are out all day; if the capability exists to stop food charges for the day in this case, then I cannot see how PAYD can ever be implemented as the system will have shown it to have been superceded by a simple change of regs.