Swooping RAF Pilot Fined

[XV277]

Originally Posted by Donna K Babbs

His really crime was not having the sense to snag the altimeter when he landed back at Cranwell!

Long way to go from Leuchars......

[Roguedent]

A rule was broken and in that there is no doubt. The civilian punishment is similar...but as was quoted in the Daily Mail the RAF punishment seemed harsh. The can of worms it will and has opened is the overriding factor. For all the uninformed types the main points of the Defence and Prosecution are below (Attempting to clarify). In the end a rule was overlooked and for that, as professional aviators, there is no excuse.

1. No NOTAM (Avoid) at the Golf
2. Local Avoid (Stn Cdr) not passed to Tutor Ops
3. Flown at 500ft - Visually Judged
4. Below 1000ft and over an organised gathering of more than 1000 people.
(these points were all made public)

TWODEADDOGS - If you only post to criticise with uninformed information and unsound conclusions, then please restrict yourself to Bebo or Facestalk, as that is all they are fit for.

Enjoy the rest of the thread...

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hello all
Roguedent et al, I admit to not being fully aware of absolutely all the facts concerning this event but having spent a decade in our little Air Corps (monty, we are as "proper" as we need to be.Besides, we export our men to fill the gaps in your ranks that your young men won't fill) seeing pilots per-petuate the same kind of stunt over and over again and occasionally having to go and pick up the pieces(twice...not pleasant), it gets a bit weary to read about it in the newpapers and to find his peers implicity supporting him (which, in fairness, is right,too), no matter how wrong he was.
regards
TDD

[Bob Viking]

Grob fly-by

Stupid...Yes!
However, let's please not pretend this was a capital offence for Christ's sake!
Please don't confuse high speed, fast-jet flypasts with a guy taking a cheeky look at the Open!
I'm not saying I think he should get away with it, but let's stop the holier than thou cr@p, shall we?!
BV

[Roguedent]

Ginsters - Pre-empted and briefed on the ground...yes...rule over-looked....yes...all other rules in the air followed....yes. The accident was not following the rule that was buried in mounds of JSP and the ANO. Again, as I said, for this rule breach there is no defence, as we should know about all the rules.

Two dogs.....If you're weary of reading it, as you say, perhaps you should stop reading. If the incident in question was an impromptue aeros display then I would agree....but if you ask around...it wasn't!!

[Bob Viking]

Uncle Ginsters

"Ironically, a high-speed fast jet fly-by would have been more legal, as fast jets aren't required to abide by the ANO."

It would have looked a damn sight cooler as well!
BV

[Roguedent]

Uncle - We could argue about where the rules are all day. The ANO wasn't massivly emphasised at CFS (TGO(e)s are!...it is now. Rule 5 was reproduced in the TGO(e)s, but wasn't complete...it is now. The FAST Jet would have been in as much trouble, as JSP550 states that over congested areas or public gatherings you must be above 1000 feet(JSP550 330.110.5). So if you had done this in a military Jet as you said in your post you also would be facing court marshall!!!!! Your point about lacking in airmanship and legality is very broad, again you are only looking at this from your blinkered perspective and have formed your opinions from the info on here and in the media. As was said before, a rule was overlooked and broken. The individual has been punished, but to say he has made us all look like idiots is unfounded and ignorant on your part. If you start throwing rules into the game, then quote them correctly.

p.s The Auth - Again more to argue about. How many times have pilots missed things from Auth sheets and been reminded the day after?? How many Pilots have been court marshalled for Auth sheet mistakes...I think (and know) none. How many pilots and authorisers have been done for deceit on the auth sheets..lots. This incident was attempted in the confines of the rules....just a rule was over looked. and the individual has been correctly punished. Please climb down off the slandering and look at this for what it is!

[T-21]

Did the RAF win the Battle of Britain ?? The new one is just beginning !!

[BEagle]

When I attended the Flying Supervisor's Course, I had just passed my ATPL Air Law exam, part of the (then) requirement to gain a BCPL/FI Rating.

I asked the lecturer about the interface between the ANO and JSP318 regarding Rules of the Air (e.g. Rule 5, 'low flying') because I'd learned that it was lawful for the Rules of the Air not to be observed if

'complying with Military Flying Regulations (Joint Service Publication 318) or Flying Orders to Contractors (Aviation Publication 67) issued by the Secretary of State in relation to an aircraft on which the commander is acting as such in the course of his duty as a member of any of Her Majesty's naval, military or air forces.'

In other words, you have to obey the ANO except where JSP318 specifically permits non-compliance.

The lecturer hadn't a clue what I was talking about - and suggested that the ANO "doesn't apply to military aircraft"....

[Training Risky]

Rodders......you didn't mention this little nugget of info on the Ski Champs did you?!? You naughty naughty boy!!

But what can you expect from a ex-McDonalds Manager! (Just joshing chap!)

[cazatou]

TwoDeadDogs

I posted this some years ago - but in view of your assertions I'l do it again.

Flying my RAF VIP aircraft into Casement Airfield - Dublin Centre said :

"Ascot xxxx call Irish Military on 120.0 - GOOD LUCK".

You weren't the Reservist who told us we were all legitimate targets - were you?

[Flying Lawyer]

Does anyone know the actual charge to which the pilot pleaded Guilty?

As a civvy, I resist the temptation to express my view upon this incident being dealt with by Court Martial rather than locally. However, what I am able to say is that the punishment was far in excess of that which civilian courts generally impose for overflying large public gatherings in breach of Rule 5.

Magistrates Court:
Fine about £800.
No action re pilot's licence.
The Court has no power to do so. The CAA has, but is highly unlikely to do so in circumstances such as these, and does not in my experience.

The Court Martial:
Fine £1500.
+ (if what I've read in various press reports is correct)
Grounded for 2 months
Ordered to undergo retraining/requalifying as a QFI.
Was the grounding pending Court Martial?
I ask because a civvy court would take into account when sentencing that the pilot had already been penalised while awaiting the hearing and/or would be further penalised (in addition to the punishment imposed by the court) after the court appearance.

I wonder if the pilot's lawyer referred the Court Martial to punishments imposed by civvy courts in such circumstances?
Additional factors might apply in the case of Mil pilots, but typical civvy penalties would at least be worthy of consideration.
There are links to recent CAA prosecutions and penalties in these threads:

• R&N
• Private Flying forum

They relate to 2007-08, but information from previous years is also available.
If, as some press reports suggest, the pilot intends to appeal against the severity of the punishment, it would at least be worth looking at the civvy penalties.


TwoDeadDogs

A guy is stupid enough to risk his job/self/aircraft/other persons (tick as appropriate) over a large public gathering, on an unauthorised "display"

(Other than the risk to his job), what do you say was the risk to himself or to the aircraft or to other persons?
Are you suggesting what he did was dangerous?
Given that someone in the RAF saw fit to build this relatively trivial incident into a Court Martial, it seems highly likely the pilot would have been charged with endangering offences if there was a shred of evidence what he did was dangerous. I've read nothing, even in the more silly of the various press reports, to make me think it was.

"I served in the Military"
Can I safely assume it wasn't as a pilot?


FL

[MightyGem]

Nice to see that the Low Flying Complaints Cell has up to date kit:

Unknown to him, a spy satellite was tracking his flight and recorded every movement, the court martial in Colchester, Essex, was told. A set of pictures taken by the satellite was handed to the panel.

Courtesy of the Daily Mail.

[Head to Earth]

NOTAM or not, as he approached the site to 'have a look' he knew he was being just a little bit naughty but let's be clear - this was no sort of 'unauthorised display' that 2DD is waffling about. We've all 'had a look' at stuff as we've been flying about but this was a little misjudged, that's all. Whatever happened to a Hats On with the Staish and a month of Orderly Officers? That slaps him on the wrists, sets an example and keeps the laundry out of the papers.

Although the CAA (and many ppruners) might argue - he was hardly putting anyone at risk and has suffered far harsher consequences than many downright evil and violent offenders in this country today - and had his name and picture dragged through the press in the process! Another RAF own goal.

[T-21]

Head To Earth,
Totally agree someone is making an harsh example. I have given up instructing because the minute you do something wrong the lawyers and ground waller's are waiting to have a field day. I am happier flying my Radio Controlled glider, but how long befor EU laws and officialdom ground that.
I hope the pilot will carry on flying and I am sure in time he will prove himself a worthy RAF pilot.

[Head to Earth]

Harsh example - you're not joking! Don't forget though - he already has proven himself to be a worthy RAF pilot - Ops over Iraq! Multis though... mustn't be too praiseworthy I can't claim to know the bloke, he didn't have it coming did he??

[3 bladed beast]

Rodders, you're an oak.

Keep that chin up mate! Although you are now a war criminal, i'll still have a beer with you!!!

Hope you didn't upset those golfing fellows too much on your reckless and pre planned flying display! Oh thats right, you were 400 feet...still, at least you've got your Rad Alt to help you judge your flight...how many loops and rolls did you do in the end??

And how many people did you actually kill in the end?

[Dr Schlong]

Quick question for any legal types.

As a pilot flying a civvie ac and breaking a civvie rule, why was a court's martial necessary? As Flying Lawyer alluded to, a magistrate's court would've had more limited powers of punishment and would've taken previous punishments into account. A guilty plea had already been given, is this not a case of overkill? Also, how much does it cost to convene a court's martial - more than £1500 surely?

The whole case smacks to me of someone (Low flying complaints?) getting their teeth into this and trying to get a court martial at any cost when a hats-on in front of staish/AOC would've been more appropriate.

Sorry to go on a bit, but I'm struggling to see the service interest in bringing this case to court's martial.

[NutherA2]

but I'm struggling to see the service interest in bringing this case to court's martial.

Pour encourager les autres?

or should that be "pour décourager les autres"

[snapper1]

I hope you will excuse a civvie intervention but I think you are missing some important points.

He broke a very basic rule for which even a newly qualified PPL, bimbling around in a Cessna, should not be excused.

The organised assembly of more than 1,000 people was an international sporting event attended by many thousands of people – no NOTAM needed – you can see that many clearly enough from a lot higher than 1,000ft.

It seems he didn’t deny being less than 1,000ft, and if he was as low as 400ft it would be very obvious to anyone in the crowd with some aviation experience.

His ‘’registration’’ number was recorded by a number of individuals at the event. Not difficult – big black letters under the left wing, and on a Tutor beginning with a ‘G’ of course.

With so many members of the public clocking him it surely wouldn’t have been a good idea to keep any resultant action within the RAF.

But most importantly, I don’t think you fully realise just how highly we regard service pilots. We know they are ‘selected’ as was pointed out earlier in this thread. We know they are head and shoulders above ordinary civilian pilots. So when an RAF instructor drops a b****ck like this in such a public manner he surely should expect to be treated more severely than a civilian pilot.

I hope he’s soon back up there passing on his wisdom to the next generation of Sky Gods, having put this indiscretion behind him.