Future Lynx??
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Isn't the AW149, NH90, S-76 and SH-60R in a more comparible programme to the Puma replacement rather than the smaller Lynx?
With the EC635 geared more towards the Gazelle replacement? Which i believe will need to be addressed soon as the OSD for the Gazelle is slated at 2012.
Looking through that list, the only platforms i can see relevant to the replacement of the Lynx if compared to the current Lynx is the Future Lynx and A109 Power in terms of size and so on.
According to the MoD Integrated Projects Team the OSD for the Puma and Gazelle are as follows:
"The Puma HCMk1 operated by the Royal Air Force and used for transporting personnel and equipment around the battlefield. It can carry up to 16 equipped soldiers or lift a load of 2 tonnes, and has particularly good performance in hot temperatures and at high altitudes. The fleet is expected to continue in Service until 2010 when it will start to be replaced by the updated Puma HC2. The Puma HC2 will continue in Service until 2022.
The smaller Gazelle AHMk1 is operated by the Army in the reconnaissance and liaison roles. While the formal Out of Service Date for Gazelle remains 2018, the MOD is examining options to replace Gazelle, and it is unlikely to remain in service much beyond 2012"
With the EC635 geared more towards the Gazelle replacement? Which i believe will need to be addressed soon as the OSD for the Gazelle is slated at 2012.
Looking through that list, the only platforms i can see relevant to the replacement of the Lynx if compared to the current Lynx is the Future Lynx and A109 Power in terms of size and so on.
According to the MoD Integrated Projects Team the OSD for the Puma and Gazelle are as follows:
"The Puma HCMk1 operated by the Royal Air Force and used for transporting personnel and equipment around the battlefield. It can carry up to 16 equipped soldiers or lift a load of 2 tonnes, and has particularly good performance in hot temperatures and at high altitudes. The fleet is expected to continue in Service until 2010 when it will start to be replaced by the updated Puma HC2. The Puma HC2 will continue in Service until 2022.
The smaller Gazelle AHMk1 is operated by the Army in the reconnaissance and liaison roles. While the formal Out of Service Date for Gazelle remains 2018, the MOD is examining options to replace Gazelle, and it is unlikely to remain in service much beyond 2012"
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But is the Puma not in greater need of a replacement before Lynx??
The US Army is getting ~1200 UH60Ms soon. Quick ... hitch a ride.
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I knew I shouldn't have let myself be drawn into this!
This programme was not about replacement of the Lynx, rather the provision of a specific capability, in this case "Find", hence the wider range of platforms considered. The "Lift" and "Maritime " functions had other platforms in the mix. The choice for "Find" just happened to be FLynx.
As for only the West Country artisans being told, there were submissions from other manufacturers on the table during the evaluation.
Alas, the day job beckons, so that's all from me.
This programme was not about replacement of the Lynx, rather the provision of a specific capability, in this case "Find", hence the wider range of platforms considered. The "Lift" and "Maritime " functions had other platforms in the mix. The choice for "Find" just happened to be FLynx.
As for only the West Country artisans being told, there were submissions from other manufacturers on the table during the evaluation.
Alas, the day job beckons, so that's all from me.
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I thought the "Find" component was added to Future Lynx following the decision to chop BLUH after the FRC study and the Army needed to justify why it needed Future Lynx as the Matelots could not afford it by themselves.
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Whether you call it Future Lynx or any other name, the capibility which will replace the Lynx is already in service and looks like this.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/eh101/
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/eh101/
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spheroid, you've posted the Merlin link twice.
Are you forgetful or just a bit dim?
In what way will Merlin replace Lynx, current or future?
Are you on about the possible aspiration from some quarters to have only three military helicopter types in service to cover everything? Chinook, Merlin and Apache. The difficulty at present is trying to quantify on paper how useful the likes of Puma, Lynx and Gazelle types are at filling the gaps that those three dont or cant cover. The trouble is 'flexibility' or 'liason' aren't justifyable reasons to some but they do allow the big three to do their job and not have to burn hours or money up doing the niff, naff and trivia.
Are you forgetful or just a bit dim?
In what way will Merlin replace Lynx, current or future?
Are you on about the possible aspiration from some quarters to have only three military helicopter types in service to cover everything? Chinook, Merlin and Apache. The difficulty at present is trying to quantify on paper how useful the likes of Puma, Lynx and Gazelle types are at filling the gaps that those three dont or cant cover. The trouble is 'flexibility' or 'liason' aren't justifyable reasons to some but they do allow the big three to do their job and not have to burn hours or money up doing the niff, naff and trivia.
spheroid
Merlin is not the way forward.
It costs about the same - if not a little more - to operate as the Chinook, lifts half as much and carries half as many troops and I cannot believe that the poor availability numbers reported by the Danes and the Portuguese (and according to Hansard, the Brits) can be down solely to poor spares procurement strategy, so why would you consider such an expensive and unreliable solution for FRC - Find or Lift?
Regarding its replacement, I’d have to side with 0497.
Land Solution:
• More Chinooks
• Blackhawk
Merlin is not the way forward.
It costs about the same - if not a little more - to operate as the Chinook, lifts half as much and carries half as many troops and I cannot believe that the poor availability numbers reported by the Danes and the Portuguese (and according to Hansard, the Brits) can be down solely to poor spares procurement strategy, so why would you consider such an expensive and unreliable solution for FRC - Find or Lift?
Regarding its replacement, I’d have to side with 0497.
Land Solution:
• More Chinooks
• Blackhawk
Capt Pugwash,
Apologies for any error, but the impression I got was very much "The answer is Flynx, now window dress it to look like a competition..." I've heard from, particularly US industrial sources, that nobody seriously thaought that "Find" would go anywhere else but Westlands and financed their "bids" accordingly. Interestingly, some of the platfoms you list, such as AW149 and NH90 would have had AW workshare, but, crucially, would not have delivered AW into the hands of Finmeccanica with a seemingly healthy order book.
Mind you, we'd probably have SH-60 in service by now and doing the job 24/7/365 in theatre....with a meaningful lift capability.
Hi Life, with you 100%. Chinook, Merlin, AH is not the best force mix. We need a helo that is Medium in size (for urban ops) such as Cougar, NH90 etc NOT more helos that are Medium in capability, but large in size and cost, such as the Merlin.
Apologies for any error, but the impression I got was very much "The answer is Flynx, now window dress it to look like a competition..." I've heard from, particularly US industrial sources, that nobody seriously thaought that "Find" would go anywhere else but Westlands and financed their "bids" accordingly. Interestingly, some of the platfoms you list, such as AW149 and NH90 would have had AW workshare, but, crucially, would not have delivered AW into the hands of Finmeccanica with a seemingly healthy order book.
Mind you, we'd probably have SH-60 in service by now and doing the job 24/7/365 in theatre....with a meaningful lift capability.
Hi Life, with you 100%. Chinook, Merlin, AH is not the best force mix. We need a helo that is Medium in size (for urban ops) such as Cougar, NH90 etc NOT more helos that are Medium in capability, but large in size and cost, such as the Merlin.
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And for the maritime veriosn Merlin fits the bill completely. The F.Lynx really is a crock of poo.....far too much donor equipment which under normal circumstances would be a cost effective sollution but only when the donor equipment works in the current vehicle. As it stands much of the donor equipment doesn't work and so the answer to the capibility gap is Merlin.
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Spheroid, do you actually know what the capability requirement is?
I do in part agree with your assumptions on FLynx.
But hey, when you're skint, you can dream of a Ferrari but in reality, a 1.1L 1993 Nova with a bodged body kit is what you will get.
I do in part agree with your assumptions on FLynx.
But hey, when you're skint, you can dream of a Ferrari but in reality, a 1.1L 1993 Nova with a bodged body kit is what you will get.
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Priorities?
From David Laws MP:
"I will continue to work closely in support of AgustaWestland to seek to ensure that the decision is the right one for Westland, for Yeovil, and for the Armed Forces."
Good to see in the eyes of the Lib Dem MP that an Italian Company and the area come before the armed forces....
"I will continue to work closely in support of AgustaWestland to seek to ensure that the decision is the right one for Westland, for Yeovil, and for the Armed Forces."
Good to see in the eyes of the Lib Dem MP that an Italian Company and the area come before the armed forces....
Razor61
"I see the USAF have bought the EC-635/EC-135 along with other European Countries to provide training, light utility/reconnaissance and light battlefield attack capability to replace the older Kiowa and Gazelles."
In that statement you must have meant the US Army and the UH-72A (EC-145), BUT sorry to say but the lads at Ft Rucker utilise the TH-67 Creek and the USAF 23rd FTS there use the Huey II and older UH-1H for rotary wing training
"I see the USAF have bought the EC-635/EC-135 along with other European Countries to provide training, light utility/reconnaissance and light battlefield attack capability to replace the older Kiowa and Gazelles."
In that statement you must have meant the US Army and the UH-72A (EC-145), BUT sorry to say but the lads at Ft Rucker utilise the TH-67 Creek and the USAF 23rd FTS there use the Huey II and older UH-1H for rotary wing training
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Looking at the Selex website the FLynx will get an automated chaff and flare system. As the new generation of Russian/Chinese Manpads use IR imaging wouldn't a laser based system be far more effective and futureproof?
I wonder how many westernised MIL 8's you could get for £1bn? Just kidding
I wonder how many westernised MIL 8's you could get for £1bn? Just kidding