Civil airspace infringements

[ShyTorque]

In Class D, ALL pilots, mil or civvy, must stay out unless in receipt of a clearance.

Any aircraft in Class G must operate on a see and avoid basis. If any pilot does not do so and has a TCAS alert, it's an occupational hazard. No pilot can expect all other aircraft to move, or be moved out of his way.

What's so difficult about that?

And no, of course military pilots don't get subsidised beer (to suggest that they do, shows a lack of either intelligence or social understanding). But at the moment, many of them bloody well deserve to get a few free ones.

And I'm a civvy these days.

[Pure Pursuit]

Widger,

The mentioning of RAS in class G was ANOTHER example of airspace issues that are out there at the moment. Perhaps you should read the thread again, slowly.

The MDAs are all very well, they are an excellent facility & are used sensibly, in line with the FUA policy which is heavily encouraged. Unfortunately, some training has to be done oustside & that is where we have the problems.

The MDAs have actually caused an issue in that aircrew are rarely having to carry out tactical bits & bobs in class C. When the do have to, some of the guys seem to forget that they are not in the MDA bubble & there have been a few run ins between FC & aircrew due to them refusing to comply with a radar control instruction. I've seen it at least 3 times recently. A Typhoon refused a turn because it as going to make him late for his IP. Absolutely p*ss poor airmanship.

That is a none starter & if it had been me, I'd have descend the offender out of the upper air & kept him in class G. I dare say he wouldn't have done it again!

Thankfully, most of our aircrew are all over it & use the airspace in a flexible manner.

I cannot remember the last time I saw a mil jet infringe class D in OTA E, the trouble is always out the the east.

TAD,

Perhaps the issue with the ABZ zone is the proximity of D613A? It's very small & jets often spill out of it.

[1.4G]

Wiggy I think it was his "you lot are a bunch of unprofessional subsidised beer drinking jolly roger officers" attitude that has got on peoples nerves. His questions about how this is dealt with have been answered.

[wiggy]

1.4G

Ah yes, I see what you mean...I do remember getting my ar*** kicked ( quite rightly) over infringing a certain Northern Airport's TMA many years ago, eee.... never did me any harm though, probably lucky that in those days Controlled Airspace was muuh less busy than it is now, even so I did have to make a grovelling apology....

Repeat after me - "do not continue at Low Level into c**p weather under the base of a TMA, do not continue at Low Level into c**p weather under the base of a TMA.."

Rgds
Wiggy

[throw a dyce]

It is a major safety concern around Aberdeen Airspace.It has been like this for as long as I can remember,and it seems like nothing changes despite the paperwork.Maybe things will change sometime,but I fear it will take a real nasty one for that to happen.

Jacko,
Your post made me laugh as well.My late old man served in the RAF during WW2,against a real nasty enemy.He warned me about people like you in the mob.Nice to see they still exist.As for the rest of your Site,then just remember that in Civil ATC land you do as I say in CAS.That is not an option.Just remember that next time you're PDing into PD.

[Diddley Dee]

TAD

As a Mil ATCO at an an area Radar Unit, I have read this thread with intrest and some understanding of where you are coming from....Your last post though exposed the attitude the guys on here have referred to and you lost me completely. Working at an Area Radr unit means I work closely with civil controllers and thankfully have met precious few with your attitude to Mil aircrew.

I agree with you about Class D infiringements, they should not be happening. I am sure that all the FJ drivers on here would be well pi$$ed off if they were IMC 7 miles final on PAR & some GA driver flew through the MATZ stub (legally I might add) and said FJ was broken off... Now transferr that to an Airliner having to go around into a large extened pattern....

My advice would be perhaps next time you have an issue you might take a chill pill before kicking the doors in on Mil Aircrew forum.

DD

[StopStart]

TAD, whilst I stand by my earlier post that maybe some mil pilots do need a little more thought, care and respect when operating around CAS your last post has confirmed what many others thought from the outset. Namely that you are a sad, bitter, chippy little man. Lets all hope that the "real nasty" you refer to is you choking on your own self importance.

To all the other civvy ATCOs out there, keep up the good work - if only you knew what a delight it was to hear a brit voice over the airwaves after many long weeks away wrestling with inflexible capacity-less foreigners!

[Roland Pulfrew]

TAD

You are of course right about the CAS infringements; it shouldn't be happening. However I think what has pi**ed people off on here is your childish, or maybe that should be naive, attitude.

Firstly the oft quoted and totally wrong viewpoint that we get "subsidised" drinks. Secondly you leave yourself open to further criticism with posts about "your old man and a really nasty enemy". Well I think that there are plenty of current RAF who are flying against an equally nasty enemy. Even the 'blunties' are getting rocketed and mortared on a daily basis in Iraq.

Next you berate Jackonicko who isn't actually "in the mob" but is a journalist. And then you go on about pilots "having to do what you say in CAS". Actually they don't. They would have to have a VERY VERY good reason for NOT doing so, but ultimately the captain has responsibility for safety of his aircraft. I have been turned in towards a mountain when a controller became temporarily uncertain of his position and gave me a left turn not a right IIRC. It can happen to all of us.

If it's happening regularly at Aberdeen have you tried to instigate a liaison with, say, Lossie and Leuchars to discuss these issues (not a slight on crews from Lossie and Leuchars as it may not be them that are the "culprits")?

[Lurking123]

Alternatively, have a chat with your contemporaries at Newcastle. They had a similar problem some years back and, having engaged with the military & CAA in a positive manner, safety (and this is all about safety regardless of the way your cloth is cut) has significantly improved. If we resort to employing the invisible wall in the sky mentality (which you have implied), then nothing much will be achieved.

NATS (your employer) has realised this in the London area. By engaging with GA and extending FBO LARS they have prevented CAS infringements. I'm not saying LARS is the answer up your way but, at very least, have a look and see how others have addressed the problem. Sounding off on a forum such as PPRuNe is merely antagonistic and achieves the square root of nothing.

[throw a dyce]

I am well aware of the London LARS new system.In fact in a lot of ways it mirrors what we have been doing here for many many years.We give aircraft in Class G services from RAS,RIS,MRAS and FIS because of the nature of the airspace and our heli traffic.We often give the heads up on multiple fast contacts,to much slower traffic and 99.99% of the time the military are not talikng to us.Farnborough are copying us,not the other way round.It's just that the LARS task it very much a secondary consideration on our priority list.Farnborough has dedicated staff for the job.
We are also very willing to give military practise diversions traffic permitting,and I'm the first to offer this when I can.It really doesn't help to call people ''Sad,Bitter,Chippy little man'' when I am trying to stop collisions and enhance safety.After all it's the military that are responsible largely for our CAS infringements and have been for the last 30 years plus.How many decades does it take for the message to get through.If they call I will offer a service.It's very simple.
Anyway it won't be the last infringement but perhaps some pilots might think,and that it is a serious matter.As for the abuse,well I thought more of military pilots but this has been a real eye opener.

[Timelord]

TAD might do well to remember that a few years ago a FJ crew took such extreme action to avoid CAS whilst in cloud that they lost control of their aircraft and died. It's all about trying to get their job done whilst managing priorities and risks.

[Bob Viking]

Throw a Dyce

I think the 'sad, bitter chippy little man' comments come about as a result of your approach.
Do you honestly believe you are stopping collisions and enhancing safety by having a rant on here?!
You are entitled to your opinions, of course, but I wouldn't take the postings of a few Ppruners as gospel and form an opinion of an entire fraternity based upon them!
BV

[mystic_meg]

I thought more of military pilots but this has been a real eye opener

...ditto civvy ATCOs...

Maybe if you lost the attitude people might be prepared to listen to you?
Just a thought, you understand........

[anotherthing]

TAD

Farnborough are not copying Aberdeen in respect to providing a LARS service... they have provided a LARS service for years, in Class G, to assist with seperation of their IFR traffic operating to and from Farnbourough which lies OUTCAS.

What Farnborough are now doing is providing a LARS service well beyond the usual 30 miles that is published in en route sups etc.

The LARS they used to provide was, in the same manner as what you do up north, a secondary consideration manned the same way as you are now. It is only since the introduction of this vastly increased area for LARS that they have been given dedicated LARS controllers.

To be fair, they need them because the users of the (much) lower levels of airspace in the LTMA have been the major safety concern within NATS as a whole for some time.

[iccarus]

Ok, some valid points!! However......

2 military infringements of class D airspace = posting on a very public forum and probably a bollocking and/or loss of supervisory privileges for individuals concerned!
Lesson will no doubt be learnt. Individuals concerned will feel professionally embarassed and the spotlight will be on for a few months to ensure that they do not repeat their mistakes!

In comparison, several years of multiple civvy airline cr@p airmanship decisions (class G , RAS and kiss my ass if you want me to take a heading change) = well done for saving 20 track miles and making the company a little bit more profit! Crack on and see how much more you can get away with next time!

Maybe someone could inform me which organisation exists to police and regulate the skills and decisions made by civvy pilots, except of course the company which wishes to save cash.

[Toadpool]

Maybe if you lost the attitude people might be prepared to listen to you?

This is also true of quite a few (not all) of the mil pilots I have dealt with over the years. Many seem to think that they are the most important aircraft in the sky and get a strop on when they don't get what they want.

I have also been in a meeting with a Sqn Ldr FJ pilot who stated that if he didn't get descent when required, he'd descend anyway using the "big sky" theory.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Oh dear .... it's kindergarten time.

There are 2 main strands to this thread. The very important and serious issue of Controlled Airspace infringements, and the attitudes and posturing of some posters.

The first is worthy of debate, since it leads to increased understanding of the differences between civil and milly operations and how such events arise. It also might educate parties on both sides as to what happens after the event and the considerations which are taken in to account. By sharing that information, it might be possible for appropriate lessons to be learned and improvements made to the operation of UK airspace.

The second issue is regrettable, but understandable to some extent, as the thread starter did not exactly pose his thread in a diplomatic and constructive manner. Some 'banter' or 'pushback' to his/her comments by military fliers and controllers was bound to follow.

The best was of course from one of our journo brethren, whose qualifications in flying a fast jet, a civil airliner with 300 souls on board, or providing an ATC service to aircraft in defined airspace is unclear to me. I suspect those qualifications are zero, and his ability to pontificate on something he has never done, or been able to do, lead me to leave up his post for all to see thus demonstrating his attitude and futility of his credibility on this specific thread. As usual he gets his anti jock rant in as well ..... guaranteeing him his place in the 'Sun', should they ever need his services. Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach or write about it. This is just as true in aviation as elsewhere it seems.

Putting the attitudes to one side, let's continue the constructive side of the debate folks. We all might just learn something.

[youngskywalker]

Well said. I must confess I found the post from Jacko to be quite belowe the belt and offensive both with regard the anti Scottish jibe (notwhistanding the normal friendly banter which I have just received on the Mil forum!) but also his comment of "nobody would ever choose to be a civil air traffic controller", what a load of bo@#ocks. In my previous job, with NATS Aberdeen, I can assure you that most of the ATCO's chose that career from the start, are dedicated, highly motivated and hard working professionals just like Military controllers and aircrew. I actually know the thread starter personally and can assure you that he is a very professional controller and somebody who easily had the ability to fly professionaly too had he wished. Granted, he has not worded this thread particularly diplomatically however!

[Boslandew]

Well said, PPrune Radar. The initial question was somewhat barbed but why oh why do so many people home in purely on the barb and ignore what was essentially a serious question deserving a serious answer.

Incidentally so much of the 'banter' and insult on this Forum is of such a childish nature I find it hard to believe it comes from adults, its like little boys bickering. I doubt that many of you would be so rude to a stranger face to face but then its so easy when you're safe on the net.

[Jackonicko]

PPRuNe Radar,

I make no secret of what I am, and I certainly do not hide the very limited nature of my aeronautical qualifications (enthusiastic but amateur glider pilot and a long-ago UAS trained PPL). I don't fly plane loads of 300 passengers, I don't hurtle around the sky in a fast jet, and I couldn't control the traffic in the Elstree circuit. But when I do fly, on my own, or with one, two or even three pax, I take pride in being as well prepared and as conscientious as I can possibly be, following the example of the professional pilots I admire and respect, while remaining aware of my inexperience and lack of real currency. And I have enormous respect and gratitude to ATC, on whom I place my reliance.

I don't think that you necessarily need to have done something to a particular level to be entitled or able to have a view, or to make a comment, though the less experience you do have, the greater the need for humility. A lack of experience of writing for publication doesn't seem to prevent PPRuNe Radar and others from making stupid remarks about journalists, after all.

The OP launched this thread with a deliberately confrontational and offensive post, asking whether it was "a jolly old thing round the subsidised beer in the mess" when RAF aircrew infringed CAS.

That's unnecessarily confrontational and stupid, and that phrase alone meant that he deserved whatever abuse people chose to throw at him.

He implied that the incidents he had witnessed were common, frequent and routine (he has a "file of past zone infringements from the military about 3 inches thick") and as good as accused military pilots of recklessly endangering the travelling public.

As aviators, we all know that RAF standards are very high. We all know of the pride that RAF aircrew take in pinpoint timing and navigational accuracy, and we all know of the exacting standards imposed by instructors, supervisors and CFS at all levels.

We might therefore conclude that occasional slips from those high standards are rare, and are unlikely to be reckless and deliberate, and are likely to be fleeting 'technical breaches' rather than huge incursions that scatter civil traffic as it manoeuvres to avoid catastrophe. And to suggest otherwise is both witless and offensive.

As to civil air traffickers, his assertion that he "never even tried to get into the RAF. Not my cup of tea" had a hollow ring to me. What I said was that being an Air Trafficker isn't a 'first choice career' - and as a generalisation I'd stick by it. (That's not the same as saying "nobody would ever choose to be a civil air traffic controller", Young Skywalker). Let's face it, anyone interested enough in aviation to work in the business wants to fly - and those who can't (often through no fault of their own) become among the best Navs, air traffickers, or even journos. There's no shame in having hayfever, glasses, inadequate o-levels or applying in a 'thin year', and not even in simply not being good enough. Not everyone has what it takes, and the kind of passion that makes you want to be a pilot will serve you well in other fields of aviation.

Many of us can get over whatever our inadequacy was (whatever prevented us from becoming a professional pilot) and can enjoy flying for fun, and can enjoy being a supporting player in the aviation world.

Mr Dyce gave every sign of having a massive chip on each shoulder, with his ill-considered rant. This is the military aircrew sub forum, and as such he (and I) are guests on it, and we should treat military aircrew with some respect and even deference - this is their place, not ours. And if we don't we can expect a robust reaction.

Throw a Dyce,

I'm sorry that all this nasty abuse has upset you, you poor dear, but had you started a thread with a more moderate tone, politely asking a serious question, outlining the problem and asking for suggestions as to how things might be improved, then I can guarantee that you'd have got a friendly and helpful response. Indeed some aircrew have over-looked your boorishness and hostility and have tried to offer just that kind of advice. But if you come here and start shouting the odds, displaying your nasty little prejudices about military aircrew, and you'll find that people are sharp enough to recognise that you're either a 'chippy little man' or a 'tw@t', or both. And on Military Aircrew, they'll tell you, in pretty blunt terms.

I'd be astonished if Air Traffickers don't have a pretty poor opinion of ageing PPLs like me who aren't really current enough, and who struggle with so many aspects of aviating, but I've never met one who was ignorant and boorish enough to come into the bar at Booker and start telling us what a dangerous rabble we all are.