The PINS System - pointless nonsense or a useful tool?
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Wensleydale, I agree to a point but part of flying defensively is assuming the other guy hasn't seen you. Taken further, it's assuming that the other guy wants to kill you. You see, you avoid. The fact that the other guy didn't see you is immaterial. Indeed, good airmanship would have the PINS helos operating with somebody to lookout, lest they hit somebody who hasn't seen them.
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To add some clarity, my problem is not the time spent briefing PINS. It's the fact that the system doesn't seem to add anything to my awareness of l/l traffic in a meaningful way. All it's saying is lookout in certain LFAs.
The fact it has to be briefed is a minor bugbear.
Blunty
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To add some clarity, my problem is not the time spent briefing PINS. It's the fact that the system doesn't seem to add anything to my awareness of l/l traffic in a meaningful way. All it's saying is lookout in certain LFAs.
The fact it has to be briefed is a minor bugbear.
Blunty
BluntM8
Why not contact some of these telephone numbers with feedback from your survey:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/7/ORA%2020071029.pdf
There's a whole shed full of people working hard to trying to prevent us all inadvertently occupying the same space at the same time with GA, aerial survey work and oil/gas support aircraft, PINS, CANP, UAVs etc etc. The Mk 1 eyeball is both the first and last factor in the mitigation of the risk, but not the only solution. Airspace is at a premium and has to be shared safely whichever way you look at it, whether you are a B206 surveying for JCBs inadvertently digging up a high pressure gas pipeline near Barrow or a GR9A preparing for deployment to Kandahar nipping over to LFA 7.
V sad to read Monty77 thinks it achieves nothing. One measure of PINS success is a daily series of non-events, whats the alternative ?
Why not contact some of these telephone numbers with feedback from your survey:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/7/ORA%2020071029.pdf
There's a whole shed full of people working hard to trying to prevent us all inadvertently occupying the same space at the same time with GA, aerial survey work and oil/gas support aircraft, PINS, CANP, UAVs etc etc. The Mk 1 eyeball is both the first and last factor in the mitigation of the risk, but not the only solution. Airspace is at a premium and has to be shared safely whichever way you look at it, whether you are a B206 surveying for JCBs inadvertently digging up a high pressure gas pipeline near Barrow or a GR9A preparing for deployment to Kandahar nipping over to LFA 7.
V sad to read Monty77 thinks it achieves nothing. One measure of PINS success is a daily series of non-events, whats the alternative ?
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Peter, the trouble with non-occurences as a means of proving a system designed to prevent accidents work is that it's nigh on impossible to prove that the system caused something to not happen. You can't prove a negative. It makes it harder to demonstrate the benefits of the system, sadly!
Before I go spouting off to the CAA about this, I think I might widen the thread to include Rotorheads, etc. After all, I started the thread to see if those who have the hours thought I was wrong, not to start a campaign! I'm ever mindful that I may be crashingly wrong about something. I have much to learn.
Blunty
Before I go spouting off to the CAA about this, I think I might widen the thread to include Rotorheads, etc. After all, I started the thread to see if those who have the hours thought I was wrong, not to start a campaign! I'm ever mindful that I may be crashingly wrong about something. I have much to learn.
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The basic premis of pins is flawed, because it implies that if the pins is not active for a particular area on a particular day you do not have to keep such a good lookout.
PINs active does not change the way I fly or lookout one iota.
Always lookout as much as possible, not least because if you don't, it is easy to forget what a good job we have.
PINs active does not change the way I fly or lookout one iota.
Always lookout as much as possible, not least because if you don't, it is easy to forget what a good job we have.
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CANPs is another subject. When I enquired of LFOS what the nature of the number they quoted was and its relevance to the flight I was booking was the reply suprised me in that it may not be relevant as it was merely the latest number that is issued. When I enquired as to how this assisted me there was something of a silent response.
There seems a misconception that everyone has access to ALFENS all the time and this is simply not the case! Why can LFOS not tell you what the activity is so that when you are in a field location......
There seems a misconception that everyone has access to ALFENS all the time and this is simply not the case! Why can LFOS not tell you what the activity is so that when you are in a field location......
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peterperfect:
Soz mate, but you can't claim PINS is working because a fast jet didn't crash into a pipeline inspecting helicopter today.
Similarly, we can't claim that extra briefing time to the effect that a helicopter may be 'somewhere' in the 3 LFAs you are planning to fly through will somehow be effective either, because it is so vague and woolly, you may as well be using that time saying a few 'Hail Mary's'. Which I would find offensive as I am a Jedi, and could probably get compensation for that or something, isn't it.
Now, I'm a 'glass half full' type, but the safest option, I reckon, is spending a bit of money, which goes straight over to the Ministry of Political Expediency (what's in it for us?).
I am merely a piloty-type chap, but there must be a way of introducing an audible jobber, based on transponders that tells you the Klingons are nearby. It doesn't need conflict resolution as descending is not an option, but gaffing off an IP to Target run certainly is when there's somebody sqwawking within 2 miles of you.
Any avionics experts care to pitch in with their views?
Soz mate, but you can't claim PINS is working because a fast jet didn't crash into a pipeline inspecting helicopter today.
Similarly, we can't claim that extra briefing time to the effect that a helicopter may be 'somewhere' in the 3 LFAs you are planning to fly through will somehow be effective either, because it is so vague and woolly, you may as well be using that time saying a few 'Hail Mary's'. Which I would find offensive as I am a Jedi, and could probably get compensation for that or something, isn't it.
Now, I'm a 'glass half full' type, but the safest option, I reckon, is spending a bit of money, which goes straight over to the Ministry of Political Expediency (what's in it for us?).
I am merely a piloty-type chap, but there must be a way of introducing an audible jobber, based on transponders that tells you the Klingons are nearby. It doesn't need conflict resolution as descending is not an option, but gaffing off an IP to Target run certainly is when there's somebody sqwawking within 2 miles of you.
Any avionics experts care to pitch in with their views?
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I'm no avionics expert but I've flown the Tucano with the new TCAS fit, which can be used in a manner as you describe (it can look up for l/l, down for m/l or up and down for ninjas, gives you traffic info but no conflict resolution, works at a bunch of ranges out to about 20 nm, IIRC). The pitfall is that you subconciously let your lookout degrade until you hear a friendly "traffic, traffic" call. Whereupon you hoover into the glider with no transponder whilst looking for the TCAS traffic.
It's a good system - it can be used to increase SA significantly, but should be taken alongside a good dose of lookout too.
Not to mention the fact that Ivan won't be squawking, will he?
Blunty
It's a good system - it can be used to increase SA significantly, but should be taken alongside a good dose of lookout too.
Not to mention the fact that Ivan won't be squawking, will he?
Blunty
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Blunt M8
When you talked about the TCAS you quoted:
'It's a good system - it can be used to increase SA significantly, but should be taken alongside a good dose of lookout too.'
Doesn't the PINS system add an extra chunk of SA to the pile? Agree that it is a little vague, but wouldn't you rather be told something might be there than not told at all.
Knowing that the SWO might be hiding behind the bush at the end of the road may seem useless info, but I bet you'd make sure your zip was done up before you left the Sqn building.
Agree that Lookout is paramount though.
When you talked about the TCAS you quoted:
'It's a good system - it can be used to increase SA significantly, but should be taken alongside a good dose of lookout too.'
Doesn't the PINS system add an extra chunk of SA to the pile? Agree that it is a little vague, but wouldn't you rather be told something might be there than not told at all.
Knowing that the SWO might be hiding behind the bush at the end of the road may seem useless info, but I bet you'd make sure your zip was done up before you left the Sqn building.
Agree that Lookout is paramount though.
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IMHO, the info given during a morning brief about PINS is so vague as to be utterly useless. It makes no difference to how we fly at low level, which has always been a see and avoid environment. I always expect to see a helo or light aircraft out there, so telling me that there might be one there is meaningless. Choke points have requirements to talk to ATC agencies, who provide traffic info - this is the best solution to avoiding other aircraft, and PINS should be discontinued. Waste of time.
