AMX refuelling video
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Well, nothing, really; on the first approach to contact he's "basket watching", and overcontrolling, leading to the missed contact. The 2nd approach is fine; however, watch the basket and hose behaviour just prior to his contact. Note the very sharp in / out movement of the hose from the tanker pod, which leads me to suspect that it was not trailed or primed correctly with fuel. This would probably cause the whiplash effect, even as he makes contact correctly.
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Watch closely around second 43 and the hose reels in about 5-6 feet as he is closing from the waiting position. Now I'm only a receiver but would not a hose that is only partially extended have the brake applied? Hence the whiplash and subsequent Oh sh1t moment...
First approach to contact shows normal slight basket chase and missed contact.
Second approach shows (at 0:43) an uncommanded (I hope) rapid partial rewind of the hose and, I suspect, the probable action of a hose brake in response to an overspeed condition.
Hence my recommendation that, if ever a hose brake applies (or, in more modern pods, the brake hold-off de-energises) during tension control mode, an automatic red light must illuminate. This should prevent the receiver making contact against a hose with no tension control available.
If the receiver makes contact against a hard hose, the resulting whip will probably cause the probe weak link to break. Or, as happened here, the drogue may detach.
Which is what my recommendation is intended to prevent!
Thank you for the very useful link - it will give me more ammunition with which to cudgel certain folk!
And, as far as I can see, the receiver did nothing wrong. Quite why the refuelling operator didn't immediately switch on the red light at 0:43 or in the subsequent 5 seconds before the receiver made contact is a different matter.
Or did the receiver make contact against a red light...
Second approach shows (at 0:43) an uncommanded (I hope) rapid partial rewind of the hose and, I suspect, the probable action of a hose brake in response to an overspeed condition.
Hence my recommendation that, if ever a hose brake applies (or, in more modern pods, the brake hold-off de-energises) during tension control mode, an automatic red light must illuminate. This should prevent the receiver making contact against a hose with no tension control available.
If the receiver makes contact against a hard hose, the resulting whip will probably cause the probe weak link to break. Or, as happened here, the drogue may detach.
Which is what my recommendation is intended to prevent!
Thank you for the very useful link - it will give me more ammunition with which to cudgel certain folk!
And, as far as I can see, the receiver did nothing wrong. Quite why the refuelling operator didn't immediately switch on the red light at 0:43 or in the subsequent 5 seconds before the receiver made contact is a different matter.
Or did the receiver make contact against a red light...
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Apologies out of the way first for all the "let's pretend this is in-house (bull**** bingo) & so secret brigade wankfest" knobbers etc......
Apologies
Just how difficult is AAR compared to other aspects of mil flying, is it difficult, routine, varies etc ?
Is it a black art or does practice make perfect ?
If you can't say due to restrictions, then don't reply, job jobbed. No need for 'intelligent' arsehole remarks. Cheers.
Apologies
Just how difficult is AAR compared to other aspects of mil flying, is it difficult, routine, varies etc ?
Is it a black art or does practice make perfect ?
If you can't say due to restrictions, then don't reply, job jobbed. No need for 'intelligent' arsehole remarks. Cheers.
It depends upon several factors - aircraft type and configuration, weight, height and ISA deviation, for example.
As long as receiver pilots do exactly as taught by their golden-gloved AARI masters of the art
, there is normally little problem.
But if it's 'establish the pre-contact position, trim, follow the references.....and chase the basket with a handful of power', then all bets are off!
As long as receiver pilots do exactly as taught by their golden-gloved AARI masters of the art
, there is normally little problem.But if it's 'establish the pre-contact position, trim, follow the references.....and chase the basket with a handful of power', then all bets are off!
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I happened to be on this particular trail on the Azores - Istrana leg. The pod was found to be at fault (not reeling-in, on contact) . I'm sure that Tony will be delighted to know that his AAR technique is being discussed by the UK's finest experts.
Salute 'Il Topo' (Strike Mouse).
Salute 'Il Topo' (Strike Mouse).
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BEagle
It was the one (of 3) 707's serviceable at the time. I'm afraid that your pod knowledge is far greater than mine. From behind, it doesn't look too dissimilar to a VC10 pod. I'm only a humble reciever - I'll take ATP56 to bed tonight for a little refresher reading.
It was the one (of 3) 707's serviceable at the time. I'm afraid that your pod knowledge is far greater than mine. From behind, it doesn't look too dissimilar to a VC10 pod. I'm only a humble reciever - I'll take ATP56 to bed tonight for a little refresher reading.
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Hi,
I happened to be on the tanker as a passenger on that particular flight and, as Beagle said, the problem was the hose break-down.
The hydraulic system that controls the hose jammed not allowing its retraction in the pod.
...you already saw the result.
Ciao
I happened to be on the tanker as a passenger on that particular flight and, as Beagle said, the problem was the hose break-down.
The hydraulic system that controls the hose jammed not allowing its retraction in the pod.
...you already saw the result.
Ciao
Thanks for the clarification, but it looked as though there was a fault at 00:43, 5 sec before the reciver made contact. This is one of the reasons that simultaneous prodding is not allowed, the refuelling operator must be alert to malfunctions between the time a receiver is cleared for contact and the moment contact is made. Any doubt? Put the red light on.
Hope that jagmate didn't get terminally bored with ATP-56 last night - or too irate at some of the -B changes in phraseology ('reform', 'buddy cruise' and other nonsense).
By the way, is 'Ten percent Carlos' still sorting things out for transits through Lajes? "I have special hotel room for Commandante - you like?"
Hope that jagmate didn't get terminally bored with ATP-56 last night - or too irate at some of the -B changes in phraseology ('reform', 'buddy cruise' and other nonsense).
By the way, is 'Ten percent Carlos' still sorting things out for transits through Lajes? "I have special hotel room for Commandante - you like?"
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Just how difficult is AAR compared to other aspects of mil flying, is it difficult, routine, varies etc ?
Is it a black art or does practice make perfect ?
Is it a black art or does practice make perfect ?
Robert Prest [the author] describes AAR "
As taking a running fukc at a rolling donut"...I think that that statement sums it up
I was lucky enough to be a pax on a VC10 when we were tanked and tankered with another VC10 and also tanked a flight of Tonk F3s....
watpiktch
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not sure about the pod, but if its the same as the HDU the stand off light will automatically come on if the brake comes on
Def, a hose problem here though, scary stuff, assume he got to an airfield safely
Def, a hose problem here though, scary stuff, assume he got to an airfield safely
