Carlo Copp says!!!
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Carlo Copp says!!!
RAAF bases vulnerable to guided weapons: (Source:AAP)
A defence analyst says the infrastructure at Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) bases in northern Australia is inadequate and they are not properly protected in light of the expanding use of precision weapons.
Air Power Australia Group spokesman Dr Carlo Kopp says a number of RAAF fighter aircraft are housed under basic shelters, and concrete bunkers should be built to offer better protection from guided bombs and missiles.
He says money should also be spent on strengthening runways and developing underground fuel storages.
But the Australian Defence Force (ADF) says it does not see any need at this stage to strengthen its bases in northern Australia.
ADF spokesman Brigadier Andrew Nikolic says he is confident the bases are adequately protected.
"What I can tell you is the arrangements to protect our northern bases are continually re-evaluated and they ensure that our defences match whatever the threat is we assess," he said.
Brigadier Nikolic says the bases are constantly evaluated.
"Defence is satisfied that the current arrangements for protection of our people and aircraft at northern Australian bases do match current threat assessments and also strategic assessments of future threats at those bases," he said.
A defence analyst says the infrastructure at Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) bases in northern Australia is inadequate and they are not properly protected in light of the expanding use of precision weapons.
Air Power Australia Group spokesman Dr Carlo Kopp says a number of RAAF fighter aircraft are housed under basic shelters, and concrete bunkers should be built to offer better protection from guided bombs and missiles.
He says money should also be spent on strengthening runways and developing underground fuel storages.
But the Australian Defence Force (ADF) says it does not see any need at this stage to strengthen its bases in northern Australia.
ADF spokesman Brigadier Andrew Nikolic says he is confident the bases are adequately protected.
"What I can tell you is the arrangements to protect our northern bases are continually re-evaluated and they ensure that our defences match whatever the threat is we assess," he said.
Brigadier Nikolic says the bases are constantly evaluated.
"Defence is satisfied that the current arrangements for protection of our people and aircraft at northern Australian bases do match current threat assessments and also strategic assessments of future threats at those bases," he said.
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Not that I'm advocating spending a poultice on our northern airfields - but didn't the Yanks say the same thing before Pearl Harbour?
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I think the Dr needs to get out more into the real world. He even quoted potential attacks by suicide bombers. Ah! - the 'Theoretical Terrorist' strikes again!.
Wessex19 posts.
The next five posts do not contribute and should be deleted. Back to the flight sim boiz.
Every asset is vulnerable to some form of attack. Build concrete revetments yet be susceptible to SAMs once airborne.
Quite a few papers are written for the purpose of professional discussion and for sowing the seeds of “what if”.
Anyhow do you ask Navy if Army bases are adequately defended?
The next five posts do not contribute and should be deleted. Back to the flight sim boiz.
Every asset is vulnerable to some form of attack. Build concrete revetments yet be susceptible to SAMs once airborne.
Quite a few papers are written for the purpose of professional discussion and for sowing the seeds of “what if”.
Anyhow do you ask Navy if Army bases are adequately defended?
HooHum, this ol chestnut revisited. Two ways to defend against precision munitions. One, keep building stonger and stronger shelters as munitions increase in accuracy and penetration power. You still have no protection for your runway. Or, two, deployability off roads or made fields. And, three, V/STOVL aircraft combined with item two. The Swedes have been operating this way forever.
Stand off weapons make any fortification or establishment vulnerable. Thought that was the idea behind mimimum bases, we could be here, we could be there, we could be anywhere.
Stand off weapons make any fortification or establishment vulnerable. Thought that was the idea behind mimimum bases, we could be here, we could be there, we could be anywhere.
Firstly to oldm8, Where do u get off calling Carlo a git and saying he is full of it??? 
Care to share your credentials and background re defence analysis compared to his??
For everyone else who wants to be informed here is the link, Have a read-
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2008-02.html
He is 100% correct in his assessment.
In time of limited conflict or outright war or when its outbreak is imminent it is too damn late to overhaul a countries defence infrastructure and equipment/platform types and numbers.
As we all know acquisition alone of large/ complex platforms like aircraft and ships costs a fortune and takes years to implement and they can be destroyed in a few minutes, literally.
Same for building or improving an airports infrastructure let alone an airbases. By the time all the wheels have turned and red tape processed it takes many years to get even a single runway built let alone all the suggested improvements at the end of the above article.
Our small air force cannot afford to lose even a tenth of its front line aircraft if it is to be able to fight even a limited regional conflict effectively. Every aircraft at one of these bases at the time of a well executed attack with cruise missiles or bombs would be gone in minutes.
That could be an entire fighter/strike Sqdn along with its tanker, AEW and transports if they are caught on the ground.
I have known Carlo for many years and he has worked tirelessly with no reward or thanks trying to help get our politicians and RAAF leadership better informed so their decisions do not leave Australia a sitting duck when the next shooting war breaks out which it will at some future date whether we are here to see it or not.
Care to share your credentials and background re defence analysis compared to his??
For everyone else who wants to be informed here is the link, Have a read-
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2008-02.html
He is 100% correct in his assessment.
In time of limited conflict or outright war or when its outbreak is imminent it is too damn late to overhaul a countries defence infrastructure and equipment/platform types and numbers.
As we all know acquisition alone of large/ complex platforms like aircraft and ships costs a fortune and takes years to implement and they can be destroyed in a few minutes, literally.
Same for building or improving an airports infrastructure let alone an airbases. By the time all the wheels have turned and red tape processed it takes many years to get even a single runway built let alone all the suggested improvements at the end of the above article.
Our small air force cannot afford to lose even a tenth of its front line aircraft if it is to be able to fight even a limited regional conflict effectively. Every aircraft at one of these bases at the time of a well executed attack with cruise missiles or bombs would be gone in minutes.
That could be an entire fighter/strike Sqdn along with its tanker, AEW and transports if they are caught on the ground.
I have known Carlo for many years and he has worked tirelessly with no reward or thanks trying to help get our politicians and RAAF leadership better informed so their decisions do not leave Australia a sitting duck when the next shooting war breaks out which it will at some future date whether we are here to see it or not.
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NZ has solved the whole problem: We have no need for any reinforced bunkers to protect our frontline aircraft, because we got rid of all our frontine aircraft.
It's worked brilliantly so far.
It's worked brilliantly so far.
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Originally Posted by aussie027
Firstly to oldm8, Where do u get off calling Carlo a git and saying he is full of it???
Care to share your credentials and background re defence analysis compared to his??
For everyone else who wants to be informed here is the link, Have a read-
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2008-02.html
He is 100% correct in his assessment.
In time of limited conflict or outright war or when its outbreak is imminent it is too damn late to overhaul a countries defence infrastructure and equipment/platform types and numbers.
As we all know acquisition alone of large/ complex platforms like aircraft and ships costs a fortune and takes years to implement and they can be destroyed in a few minutes, literally.
Same for building or improving an airports infrastructure let alone an airbases. By the time all the wheels have turned and red tape processed it takes many years to get even a single runway built let alone all the suggested improvements at the end of the above article.
Our small air force cannot afford to lose even a tenth of its front line aircraft if it is to be able to fight even a limited regional conflict effectively. Every aircraft at one of these bases at the time of a well executed attack with cruise missiles or bombs would be gone in minutes.
That could be an entire fighter/strike Sqdn along with its tanker, AEW and transports if they are caught on the ground.
I have known Carlo for many years and he has worked tirelessly with no reward or thanks trying to help get our politicians and RAAF leadership better informed so their decisions do not leave Australia a sitting duck when the next shooting war breaks out which it will at some future date whether we are here to see it or not.
Care to share your credentials and background re defence analysis compared to his??
For everyone else who wants to be informed here is the link, Have a read-
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2008-02.html
He is 100% correct in his assessment.
In time of limited conflict or outright war or when its outbreak is imminent it is too damn late to overhaul a countries defence infrastructure and equipment/platform types and numbers.
As we all know acquisition alone of large/ complex platforms like aircraft and ships costs a fortune and takes years to implement and they can be destroyed in a few minutes, literally.
Same for building or improving an airports infrastructure let alone an airbases. By the time all the wheels have turned and red tape processed it takes many years to get even a single runway built let alone all the suggested improvements at the end of the above article.
Our small air force cannot afford to lose even a tenth of its front line aircraft if it is to be able to fight even a limited regional conflict effectively. Every aircraft at one of these bases at the time of a well executed attack with cruise missiles or bombs would be gone in minutes.
That could be an entire fighter/strike Sqdn along with its tanker, AEW and transports if they are caught on the ground.
I have known Carlo for many years and he has worked tirelessly with no reward or thanks trying to help get our politicians and RAAF leadership better informed so their decisions do not leave Australia a sitting duck when the next shooting war breaks out which it will at some future date whether we are here to see it or not.
)
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I have known Carlo for many years and he has worked tirelessly with no reward or thanks trying to help get our politicians and RAAF leadership better informed so their decisions do not leave Australia a sitting duck when the next shooting war breaks out which it will at some future date whether we are here to see it or not.
, and his 'information' since, whether right or wrong, has been delivered in such a fierce manner that no one is willing to give him any time any more.
If he's so intelligent, why doesn't he realise that in order to play the game, you have to play by the rules. Stay engaged to be engaged etc. He overshot and the RAAF disengaged, game over.
Evertonian
Well, it's not limited to runways. Everytime they close a car factory, or production line, the oldies tell me "Where will they build the tanks & planes if a war breaks out?"
It's an old chestnut I know, but as a child during the Blitz, these things leave a lasting impression. If you've been through it, you'll always be thinking of how to defend against it happening again. Current generations believe that it won't happen or couldn't happen on the same scale, but history does tend to repeat.
We will be an extremely fortunate nation if a war never comes to our shore but, it's one thing to hope, and another to insure against it.
It's an old chestnut I know, but as a child during the Blitz, these things leave a lasting impression. If you've been through it, you'll always be thinking of how to defend against it happening again. Current generations believe that it won't happen or couldn't happen on the same scale, but history does tend to repeat.
We will be an extremely fortunate nation if a war never comes to our shore but, it's one thing to hope, and another to insure against it.
aussie027 is not affiliated in any way with "Air Power Australia Group" (but may have a significant commercial interest in the reinforced concrete industry )
)
Ampan has made an excellent point, maybe people think we should follow the NZ strategy which was brilliant, lets bury our heads in the sand while sticking our asses in the air so it can get kicked (or worse
) whenever any would be aggressor likes.
Buster Hyman said- Well, it's not limited to runways. Everytime they close a car factory, or production line, the oldies tell me "Where will they build the tanks & planes if a war breaks out?"
It's an old chestnut I know, but as a child during the Blitz, these things leave a lasting impression. If you've been through it, you'll always be thinking of how to defend against it happening again. Current generations believe that it won't happen or couldn't happen on the same scale, but history does tend to repeat.
We will be an extremely fortunate nation if a war never comes to our shore but, it's one thing to hope, and another to insure against it.
It's an old chestnut I know, but as a child during the Blitz, these things leave a lasting impression. If you've been through it, you'll always be thinking of how to defend against it happening again. Current generations believe that it won't happen or couldn't happen on the same scale, but history does tend to repeat.
We will be an extremely fortunate nation if a war never comes to our shore but, it's one thing to hope, and another to insure against it.
The state of our defences despite all the ADF commanders and politicians bluster and spin is in a terrible state and in no shape to do more than barely defend us against a small regional threat let alone a large serious one. Decades of defence cutbacks as a result of the leadership failing to seriously consider many diff proposed possible scenarios from ever becoming a reality has already done its work and is continuing at a frightening pace.
If you look at the massive arms race going on in virtually every major country in Asia and the sub continent and the amount they have been spending on defence as a % of GDP compared to our own for the past 30yrs you will see the trends emerging.
As Wessex stated in his opening thread-
But the Australian Defence Force (ADF) says it does not see any need at this stage to strengthen its bases in northern Australia.
ADF spokesman Brigadier Andrew Nikolic says he is confident the bases are adequately protected.
"What I can tell you is the arrangements to protect our northern bases are continually re-evaluated and they ensure that our defences match whatever the threat is we assess," he said.
Brigadier Nikolic says the bases are constantly evaluated.
"Defence is satisfied that the current arrangements for protection of our people and aircraft at northern Australian bases do match current threat assessments and also strategic assessments of future threats at those bases," he said.
ADF spokesman Brigadier Andrew Nikolic says he is confident the bases are adequately protected.
"What I can tell you is the arrangements to protect our northern bases are continually re-evaluated and they ensure that our defences match whatever the threat is we assess," he said.
Brigadier Nikolic says the bases are constantly evaluated.
"Defence is satisfied that the current arrangements for protection of our people and aircraft at northern Australian bases do match current threat assessments and also strategic assessments of future threats at those bases," he said.
Of course they think it is perfectly fine, they dont have 100s of millions of dollars or billions to spend on upgrading air bases as all the money has to go to buy the new platforms(aircraft in this case) to put on them.
As the world so tragically saw on 9/11 and the US on Dec 7th 1941 billions of dollars worth of infrastructure and 1000s of lives can be lost in minutes in an attack, even the one that was expected (attack in the Pacific by Japanese ) as outbreak of war was at that time imminent.
Last edited by aussie027; 14th Feb 2008 at 02:51.
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Where will they build the tanks & planes if a war breaks out?"
''Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it''
Anyone who thinks that Australia will never again become involved in some form of a major regional conflict is IMHO fooling no-one but themselves.
During WWII a great deal of various types of war materiel (Yes, that is the correct spelling; check the definition in a dictionary
) was made in various factories around Australia that in peacetime made general consumer goods.For instance; The General Motors Woodville SA (later GMH Woodville) made amongst other things, 3.7in Anti Aircraft Guns.
Lysaght Sheet Metal made the Owen Sub Machine Gun whilst Lithgow Small Arms turned out .303s and Bren Guns by the thousands.
Other ppruners may have other examples but the point is, the manufacturing base in Australia is unfortunately slowly declining.
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but the point is, the manufacturing base in Australia is unfortunately slowly declining
The ability to receive manufactured goods/arms (ie lendlease) made the difference to Russia and the UK in WW2.
Last edited by Pera; 14th Feb 2008 at 21:30. Reason: i before e except after c
Evertonian
Our ability to recieve goods from the USA
made the difference to Russia and the UK in WW2
So, could this be why the RAAF only had Boomerangs & Wirraways to put up against the Zero's? (Heroes, all of them!) Could good kit have made a difference in the early days of the Pacific war? Didn't we still build most of the British & American here later on, as we couldn't get it shipped in significant numbers?...IIRC. (correct me if I'm wrong, I was once before!)
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I was amazed when first arriving to Australia 25 years ago how little SAM coverage the top end had. Many years later i'm still surprised.
Was always inpressed with the Bloodhound gate gardean at RAAF Darwin though.
It wouldnt be hard to get off the self gear though Patriot/Arrow - S300/400 anybody?
Or do we allready have the gear and its sitting in one of the underground bunkers in the Blue Mountains
Was always inpressed with the Bloodhound gate gardean at RAAF Darwin though.
It wouldnt be hard to get off the self gear though Patriot/Arrow - S300/400 anybody?
Or do we allready have the gear and its sitting in one of the underground bunkers in the Blue Mountains
JORN
Back in the 80's we spent many millions of dollars on an early warning system and we continue to invest heavily in that area today - Wedgetail being the latest example. If we have ample warning that an attack is coming, aircraft can be scrambled to intercept or move to another base out of range.
Presumably the intel community will inform Defence when they need to be cocked and locked, so why the hell do we need to spend millions on concrete structures that can be penetrated anyway??
An atomic weapon is going to ruin our day, bunkers or not. Spend the money where it's needed!
Back to the drawing board Carlo....
Presumably the intel community will inform Defence when they need to be cocked and locked, so why the hell do we need to spend millions on concrete structures that can be penetrated anyway??
An atomic weapon is going to ruin our day, bunkers or not. Spend the money where it's needed!
Back to the drawing board Carlo....
Ah yes the magic of JORN, it may be a great system but not infallible. Even its early warning may not be early enough.
For eg sub launched supersonic cruise missiles could be fired from very close inshore and at M1.5 plus speed , small size/stealth and low altitude profile by the time they are , if they are detected and a correct ID made of the nature of the returns it would be too late to scramble anything.
The Americans had the Jap strike force on Radar too on the morning of Dec 7th but fat lot of good that did em as we know what happened with that info.
For the more technically inclined this might be worth a read.
The author of CH 5 is the one whose work is the topic of this thread.
http://www.scitechpublishing.com/ind...ROD&ProdID=408
Enjoy.
For eg sub launched supersonic cruise missiles could be fired from very close inshore and at M1.5 plus speed , small size/stealth and low altitude profile by the time they are , if they are detected and a correct ID made of the nature of the returns it would be too late to scramble anything.
The Americans had the Jap strike force on Radar too on the morning of Dec 7th but fat lot of good that did em as we know what happened with that info.
For the more technically inclined this might be worth a read.
The author of CH 5 is the one whose work is the topic of this thread.
http://www.scitechpublishing.com/ind...ROD&ProdID=408
Enjoy.