Next Years Pay Award
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I thought I would drop this little gem in here for you all to discuss.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...5/narmy105.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...5/narmy105.xml
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This sounds like a good opportunity for the government to allow a large increase in remuneration for Service personnel without busting the Treasury's guidelines for public sector pay rises. They would be very foolish not to embrace the AFPRB's recommendation in full!
But what are they going to do about the "pinch points" that are causing concern? I know it's not just an aircrew thing, but from the operators' perspective, experienced pilots seem to be leaving in droves; it's the loss of experienced QFIs, authorizers and execs - that we cannot just wave a magic wand and quickly replace - that hurt most. With companies like Netjets offering early captaincy for experienced personnel, it strikes me that the AFPRB have to do something to stem the outflow!
But what are they going to do about the "pinch points" that are causing concern? I know it's not just an aircrew thing, but from the operators' perspective, experienced pilots seem to be leaving in droves; it's the loss of experienced QFIs, authorizers and execs - that we cannot just wave a magic wand and quickly replace - that hurt most. With companies like Netjets offering early captaincy for experienced personnel, it strikes me that the AFPRB have to do something to stem the outflow!
Last edited by LFFC; 5th Jan 2008 at 13:54.
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A little bird told me that the Government was hoping to use the review of the X-Factor this year to abolish it. There are personnel within PMA who, I hear, expect the 13% we currently get to be reduced to zero - the reasons being that it does not reflect conditions in the way it was supposed to when it was brought in.
Didn't we get a 'significant' pay rise last year? I am now an average of about 100 quid a month worse off after changes to allowances snuck-in with JPA, a major LOA review and quartering charges increasing to a greater percentage than the pay rise itself.
Didn't we get a 'significant' pay rise last year? I am now an average of about 100 quid a month worse off after changes to allowances snuck-in with JPA, a major LOA review and quartering charges increasing to a greater percentage than the pay rise itself.
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Not to mention HTD (or whatever it's called today) being cut at a time when fuel prices are rocketing. Nice one that.
The only consolation is that a pay rise, big or small, will only affect my pension.
The only consolation is that a pay rise, big or small, will only affect my pension.
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LFFC,
as you say, it's not just aircrew that are walking. Take a look at the figures for some of the other branches and trades, many of them are hurting and it's a problem that money alone, in terms of a pay rise, will not solve.
Accomodation is appalling on many of our camps, it must be sorted. DHE are sitting on their arses, because they can. Nobody seems to be kicking them into gear.
Food at many camps, particularly at some JR messes that use PAYD is, quite frankly, awful. Easy to sort, revert back to plan A & get some blue shirts in the kitchen.
Are incentives likely to be offered outside of the aircrew world?
ATC & FC are likely to take a hit next summer with NATS debating on whether or not to run 'short' courses for ex mil controllers in order to address a huge shortfall in the civil sector. I visited Swanwick recently and NATS are certainly looking at it.
No disrespect to Adminers or other branches that have a fairly short & cheap training system however, they can be replaced as they leave without too much expense. Lets face it, there are plenty of them who started their careers as wannabe pilots, Navs, FC etc and were chopped, sent back to OASC and reselected. Not suggesting they aren't valuable personnel, they just cost a great deal less to train than many other branches/trades.
Incentives may have to be offered to some none aircrew branches & trades in the near future if the potential outflow is to be prevented.
Well, those of us who are not members of the winged master race can always dream...
as you say, it's not just aircrew that are walking. Take a look at the figures for some of the other branches and trades, many of them are hurting and it's a problem that money alone, in terms of a pay rise, will not solve.
Accomodation is appalling on many of our camps, it must be sorted. DHE are sitting on their arses, because they can. Nobody seems to be kicking them into gear.
Food at many camps, particularly at some JR messes that use PAYD is, quite frankly, awful. Easy to sort, revert back to plan A & get some blue shirts in the kitchen.
Are incentives likely to be offered outside of the aircrew world?
ATC & FC are likely to take a hit next summer with NATS debating on whether or not to run 'short' courses for ex mil controllers in order to address a huge shortfall in the civil sector. I visited Swanwick recently and NATS are certainly looking at it.
No disrespect to Adminers or other branches that have a fairly short & cheap training system however, they can be replaced as they leave without too much expense. Lets face it, there are plenty of them who started their careers as wannabe pilots, Navs, FC etc and were chopped, sent back to OASC and reselected. Not suggesting they aren't valuable personnel, they just cost a great deal less to train than many other branches/trades.
Incentives may have to be offered to some none aircrew branches & trades in the near future if the potential outflow is to be prevented.
Well, those of us who are not members of the winged master race can always dream...
"No disrespect to Adminers or other branches that have a fairly short & cheap training system however, they can be replaced as they leave without too much expense. Lets face it, there are plenty of them who started their careers as wannabe pilots, Navs, FC etc and were chopped, sent back to OASC and reselected. Not suggesting they aren't valuable personnel, they just cost a great deal less to train than many other branches/trades"
Oooooh talk like that will get you direct admission to the Gordon Brown school of economics - price of everything, value of nothing - and I'm sure you wouldn't want that would you???
It's not all about cost, experience is a very valuable commodity; why do you think people leaving the Services in their 20-30s can command higher pay packets than someone fresh in from school / university? Experience, especially when we are engaged in un predictable assymetric ops (and that's just dealing with Brown et al, let alone the various shades of insurgent) is something you can't replace overnight, no matter how short or cheap the training is.
I have been in and out of various bits of the different sandpits since 2003, and a prime example of this can be seen in the various Int staffs I have dealt with - used as an example as engineers aside, they are the ground branch I have had most dealings with on ops. All very keen, and generally very able, but who would you want doing your mission briefings? Someone that's been around and seen a bit and isn't going to panic at the first sign of things not going to plan (lets face it, it rarely does!) or someone fresh out of the Int factory who is keen but still bears a striking resemblance to a rabbit caught in the headlights for the first 2months?
Just a singular example, and I'm sure there are other equally applicable examples for the other various branches. But it serves to make the point that we can't afford to let people walk over sh1t conditions just because they're easy to replace - whatever branch or trade they come from. The experience of those that have been around a bit is the one thing that could keep you alive when it's all going horribly wrong. The only time having an inflow of inexperienced people works is if you're going for a Stalinist policy of quantity over quality, in which case you need a lot of them - something we don't have.
As an afterthought .... just what would people consider to be a decent pay rise? And I mean being realistic and not asking for things that we know will never be forthcoming. And more importantly, if what D-IFF said about X-Factor is correct, what are the odds on X Factor being abolished but take home pay remaining the same ..... by my understanding that would be a 13% rise on the basic salary. Now just think how Brown % Browne could spin that one!!!
Oooooh talk like that will get you direct admission to the Gordon Brown school of economics - price of everything, value of nothing - and I'm sure you wouldn't want that would you???
It's not all about cost, experience is a very valuable commodity; why do you think people leaving the Services in their 20-30s can command higher pay packets than someone fresh in from school / university? Experience, especially when we are engaged in un predictable assymetric ops (and that's just dealing with Brown et al, let alone the various shades of insurgent) is something you can't replace overnight, no matter how short or cheap the training is.
I have been in and out of various bits of the different sandpits since 2003, and a prime example of this can be seen in the various Int staffs I have dealt with - used as an example as engineers aside, they are the ground branch I have had most dealings with on ops. All very keen, and generally very able, but who would you want doing your mission briefings? Someone that's been around and seen a bit and isn't going to panic at the first sign of things not going to plan (lets face it, it rarely does!) or someone fresh out of the Int factory who is keen but still bears a striking resemblance to a rabbit caught in the headlights for the first 2months?
Just a singular example, and I'm sure there are other equally applicable examples for the other various branches. But it serves to make the point that we can't afford to let people walk over sh1t conditions just because they're easy to replace - whatever branch or trade they come from. The experience of those that have been around a bit is the one thing that could keep you alive when it's all going horribly wrong. The only time having an inflow of inexperienced people works is if you're going for a Stalinist policy of quantity over quality, in which case you need a lot of them - something we don't have.
As an afterthought .... just what would people consider to be a decent pay rise? And I mean being realistic and not asking for things that we know will never be forthcoming. And more importantly, if what D-IFF said about X-Factor is correct, what are the odds on X Factor being abolished but take home pay remaining the same ..... by my understanding that would be a 13% rise on the basic salary. Now just think how Brown % Browne could spin that one!!!
Last edited by Melchett01; 5th Jan 2008 at 17:01.
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Comparable Civilian Jobs....
I think that the methodology used in determining the X-Factor results in us being short changed.
For example, when I was in Iraq I came into contact with a mulititude of civilian contractors - from builders and joiners to doctors and nurses.
Universally and without exeption, each were being paid at least TWICE what they would get in the UK for their services. Many volunteered to stay in theatre a little longer to allow them to avoid UK tax for the whole year. The net result was that (for example) a civilian nurse who worked in Basrah Air Station would earn around 4 times their UK take home pay for the year.
For bodyguards, convoy commanders and the like, £100,000 tax free for the year would not be uncommon. AND they have the right to refuse work, complain about pay and conditions, form trade unions and leave when it suits them!
Comparable pay my arse!
Trash
For example, when I was in Iraq I came into contact with a mulititude of civilian contractors - from builders and joiners to doctors and nurses.
Universally and without exeption, each were being paid at least TWICE what they would get in the UK for their services. Many volunteered to stay in theatre a little longer to allow them to avoid UK tax for the whole year. The net result was that (for example) a civilian nurse who worked in Basrah Air Station would earn around 4 times their UK take home pay for the year.
For bodyguards, convoy commanders and the like, £100,000 tax free for the year would not be uncommon. AND they have the right to refuse work, complain about pay and conditions, form trade unions and leave when it suits them!
Comparable pay my arse!
Trash
Champagne anyone...?
I agree that some wages for civvies in theatre are huge but "civvies" is the key word here. We've all signed up to work for HMG and as such have to do as we're told. For a civilian company to attract people into a crap job they have to offer the big bucks. Basic economics really. Comparing your salary with the bloke that fixes the internet at the COB is comparing chalk with cheese. If he can earm more than you fitting broadband for BT in Slough then there's going to need to be a fairly big inducement to get him out to Iraq.
Offering service personnel tax free pay whilst on ops overseas would, I reckon, cure so many of our woes in one fail swoop. Money doesn't cure everything but it's a bloody good analgesic....
Unfortuately the Treasury would never, ever, wear it. As such we shall go on haemorrhaging that one intangible, uncostable, invaluable asset we have left: experience. From the aircrew perspective, you only have to read the monthly Flight Safety reports from the overdeployed, undertrained stations to see what this is really costing us.
As for aircrew retention bonuses - well that would be nice. I'm not sure who they're paying these things to but it ain't me and my lot...
Offering service personnel tax free pay whilst on ops overseas would, I reckon, cure so many of our woes in one fail swoop. Money doesn't cure everything but it's a bloody good analgesic....
Unfortuately the Treasury would never, ever, wear it. As such we shall go on haemorrhaging that one intangible, uncostable, invaluable asset we have left: experience. From the aircrew perspective, you only have to read the monthly Flight Safety reports from the overdeployed, undertrained stations to see what this is really costing us.
As for aircrew retention bonuses - well that would be nice. I'm not sure who they're paying these things to but it ain't me and my lot...
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Melchett01,
My whole point is about maintaining experience in areas other than aircrew. There have been no incentives in the ground branches.
Int is not one of the branches I would refer to as being cheap to train.
My point is that so far, experience has been allowed to walk without so much as a murmour with the exception of aircrew. Int is actually another good example of a branch that would benefit from some sort of incentive, in order to maintain valuable experience.
I have to disagree with you about it not all coming down to money, this thread is based on our potential pay rise. It absolutely does come down to money and the government's failure to cough up is causing us to lose a massive amount of experience to the outside world.
Browne and Brown cannot expect people to hang around due a sense of loyalty to the Service, utter tosh. Loyalty and trust are both supposed to be two way streets.
My whole point is about maintaining experience in areas other than aircrew. There have been no incentives in the ground branches.
Int is not one of the branches I would refer to as being cheap to train.
My point is that so far, experience has been allowed to walk without so much as a murmour with the exception of aircrew. Int is actually another good example of a branch that would benefit from some sort of incentive, in order to maintain valuable experience.
I have to disagree with you about it not all coming down to money, this thread is based on our potential pay rise. It absolutely does come down to money and the government's failure to cough up is causing us to lose a massive amount of experience to the outside world.
Browne and Brown cannot expect people to hang around due a sense of loyalty to the Service, utter tosh. Loyalty and trust are both supposed to be two way streets.
The sad thing is, there was a thread similar to this several months ago, and pay and fri's were often mentioned.
Why is this sad?
Because it seems we have passed the tipping point, and now even a big pay increase(which I don't think we will get whilst the plod are being capped due to 'inflation' worries) will not be enough to keep people in. Too little, and far too late.
CAS/CDS/CGS/First Sea Lord - Shame on you for allowing things to get this far!
Why is this sad?
Because it seems we have passed the tipping point, and now even a big pay increase(which I don't think we will get whilst the plod are being capped due to 'inflation' worries) will not be enough to keep people in. Too little, and far too late.
CAS/CDS/CGS/First Sea Lord - Shame on you for allowing things to get this far!
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Not enough experience from my point of view, I think NATS would just laugh at me!
I'm not just looking at myself, not at all. It's becoming bloody disturbing to watch so many friends leave the RAF without ANY regrets. The FC branch only one of many branches hurting & it really is starting to grit my sh*t that nothing is going to be done about this at all.
I care about the RAF and it is sad to see that we are becoming a second rate force with no real future. Not under Brown & co anyway.
Rant off!
I'm not just looking at myself, not at all. It's becoming bloody disturbing to watch so many friends leave the RAF without ANY regrets. The FC branch only one of many branches hurting & it really is starting to grit my sh*t that nothing is going to be done about this at all.
I care about the RAF and it is sad to see that we are becoming a second rate force with no real future. Not under Brown & co anyway.
Rant off!
I'm afraid that anyone with expectatations of a pay rise in exceedence of last years rise should steel themselves for disappointment.
The public may have sympathy with our cause, but the credit crunch, maortgage rises etc all provide them with their own problems.
Broon has got away with it in the past, he will get away with it until the next election.
Until our manning reaches critical mass, nothing will happen. We may be on our way to critical mass, but we are not there yet. Remember, dilution levels and inexperience don't show up on a balance sheet.
The public may have sympathy with our cause, but the credit crunch, maortgage rises etc all provide them with their own problems.
Broon has got away with it in the past, he will get away with it until the next election.
Until our manning reaches critical mass, nothing will happen. We may be on our way to critical mass, but we are not there yet. Remember, dilution levels and inexperience don't show up on a balance sheet.
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Megawart said,
I totally agree. Rhydian was definitely favourite to win the show and media watchdog Ofcom is looking into complaints from X Factor viewers who claim they could not phone in to vote for the eventual runner-up. 
I think that the methodology used in determining the X-Factor results in us being short changed.
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Stoppers - I think the FRIs are only paid to Sqn Ldrs at their 38 point now. Still 50K - but there is good news if you are a Sqn Ldr and at your 38 point - the FRI is DOUBLED to 100K. Because what we really need are crap 40 yr old Sqn Ldrs who couldn't get a job in an airline because all the people they've p155ed off along the way won't recommend them to their employers.
Bunch of @rse mate.
Bunch of @rse mate.
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I have to second Melchett's last post. I agree that the Air Force flys Aircraft and for that you need Aircrew, who should be well paid as a result of the time it takes to train and to gain experieance.
However other trades do take a long time also to train, and that's not just the techies. The AFPRB has always given retention bonuses to Aircrew to stem the flow of them going but they don't seem to realise that IT'S NOT JUST THEM LEAVING. We are hemorraghing ground trade people at an alarming rate, yet what has been done to sort this? It's too little too late. I know alot of people who have been told that they can make more money outside and they are leaving in droves. Something has to be done in this pay offer to retain other trades, not just the Aircrew.
However other trades do take a long time also to train, and that's not just the techies. The AFPRB has always given retention bonuses to Aircrew to stem the flow of them going but they don't seem to realise that IT'S NOT JUST THEM LEAVING. We are hemorraghing ground trade people at an alarming rate, yet what has been done to sort this? It's too little too late. I know alot of people who have been told that they can make more money outside and they are leaving in droves. Something has to be done in this pay offer to retain other trades, not just the Aircrew.
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Dodger
I think that the wheels are perfectly aware that it's not just aircrew that are leaving, and I agree that something should be done about it.
However, it costs so much more, and takes so much longer, to replace experienced pilots that it makes economic sense to offer financial retention incentives to keep them serving!
To catch an important point that people have made tonight; it's not just pay that counts. As in the civilian world, pay is just part of the overall remuneration package - all sorts of other things count. The Bean Counters recognised that about 5 or 6 years ago when they introduced a range of retention measures, only one of which was financial. The trouble is that, most, if not all, of the non-financial retention measures that I remember being trumpeted from the parapets seem to have been washed away by recent "initiatives" and savings measures.
Here's an interesting snip from the AFPRB's report in 2002:
I'm sure that at least the "pay modernisation" has had quite an impact on retention!
I think that the wheels are perfectly aware that it's not just aircrew that are leaving, and I agree that something should be done about it.
However, it costs so much more, and takes so much longer, to replace experienced pilots that it makes economic sense to offer financial retention incentives to keep them serving!
To catch an important point that people have made tonight; it's not just pay that counts. As in the civilian world, pay is just part of the overall remuneration package - all sorts of other things count. The Bean Counters recognised that about 5 or 6 years ago when they introduced a range of retention measures, only one of which was financial. The trouble is that, most, if not all, of the non-financial retention measures that I remember being trumpeted from the parapets seem to have been washed away by recent "initiatives" and savings measures.
Here's an interesting snip from the AFPRB's report in 2002:
The results of the Services’ Continuous Attitude Surveys pointed to a series of push and pull factors influencing retention. These included: the effect on family life of separation; promotion opportunities; overstretch; leave and travel warrant restrictions; competition from civilian jobs with skill shortages; and pay in relation to hours worked. MOD acknowledged that no one policy alone could resolve retention issues and that the ability to control some factors was constrained. Retention initiatives now in place included the Service Families Task Force, separation bonuses, Financial Retention Incentives, the Operational Welfare Package and easier transfer between capbadges. It added that other measures were in hand including pay modernisation, a review of compensation and pension schemes, and accommodation improvements.
Last edited by LFFC; 5th Jan 2008 at 22:01.
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Dont think we will be getting much of a rise!!
http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7173656.stm
http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7173656.stm
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Stop Start
I think that you are missing a major campaign pedestal by ignoring what convoy commanders et al get paid because they are civvies. My recollection is that the 40% pension increase and over inflation pay rises that MPs vote for them selves is based on equivalence to other people ( in their case foreign MPs) get paid. Sauce for the goose?
regards
retard
I think that you are missing a major campaign pedestal by ignoring what convoy commanders et al get paid because they are civvies. My recollection is that the 40% pension increase and over inflation pay rises that MPs vote for them selves is based on equivalence to other people ( in their case foreign MPs) get paid. Sauce for the goose?
regards
retard
Champagne anyone...?
Eng(r)
The snuffling snouts at the trough will use that as a reason to demand their 7000% pay rise every two weeks or whatever is, as they are comparing like with like.
The pay rights of a civilian convoy commander can no more be compared with a military one than can those of a senior BA captain and senior RAF AT captain. By signing up to the military you waive your rights to (among many many other things) to be paid "danger" money etc when sent somewhere nasty or to demand the high salaries of the civilian sector.
Where we can, rightly, bitch and moan however is when we compare our benefits to those of the other militaries alongside which we serve. US Forces getting tax free pay and Australians getting tax free pay plus their other bonuses are prime examples.
D-IFF
I'd heard it was something like that. It's a shame the RAF can't make targetted FRIs to retain the key people that we need to keep rather than this scattergun approach. A shortage of sqn ldrs and we get this blanket FRI that attracts a few good chaps to stay as well as, as you said, all the chisellers that couldn't get a job in civvy street as they've either been blackballed or are just crap.
Genius
The snuffling snouts at the trough will use that as a reason to demand their 7000% pay rise every two weeks or whatever is, as they are comparing like with like.
The pay rights of a civilian convoy commander can no more be compared with a military one than can those of a senior BA captain and senior RAF AT captain. By signing up to the military you waive your rights to (among many many other things) to be paid "danger" money etc when sent somewhere nasty or to demand the high salaries of the civilian sector.
Where we can, rightly, bitch and moan however is when we compare our benefits to those of the other militaries alongside which we serve. US Forces getting tax free pay and Australians getting tax free pay plus their other bonuses are prime examples.
D-IFF
I'd heard it was something like that. It's a shame the RAF can't make targetted FRIs to retain the key people that we need to keep rather than this scattergun approach. A shortage of sqn ldrs and we get this blanket FRI that attracts a few good chaps to stay as well as, as you said, all the chisellers that couldn't get a job in civvy street as they've either been blackballed or are just crap.
Genius