Falklands again
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 1,771
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Red Arrows in the Falklands
Well actually ( as in Monty Python )
You could do worse than send the Red's there - apart from rodgering their 'standard' useful role, their Hawks are T1a's, so able to remove the diesel-smoke tanks ( fit arranged by my father at Dunsfold, birth & development place of the Hawk ) & able to carry Sidewinders - relying on the seeker heads so home defence really but would probably do rather well along with AMRAAM F-3's or hopefully -if bugs ironed out - Typhoons.
I do believe seriously we as a country need Harrier 2+, it would integrate very well with JFH; as for flying from Stanley, 2 phrases spring to mind whatever a/c we put there; 'eggs in one basket' , & ' Black Buck'...
You could do worse than send the Red's there - apart from rodgering their 'standard' useful role, their Hawks are T1a's, so able to remove the diesel-smoke tanks ( fit arranged by my father at Dunsfold, birth & development place of the Hawk ) & able to carry Sidewinders - relying on the seeker heads so home defence really but would probably do rather well along with AMRAAM F-3's or hopefully -if bugs ironed out - Typhoons.
I do believe seriously we as a country need Harrier 2+, it would integrate very well with JFH; as for flying from Stanley, 2 phrases spring to mind whatever a/c we put there; 'eggs in one basket' , & ' Black Buck'...
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: by the Great Salt Lake, USA
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, knowitall... which UK politician is going to declare your "total exclusion zone" before anything happens at all?
If you had bothered to read my post, rather than just glancing at it, you would find that the first clue the UK would have would be the declaration of the invasion over the radio... which would come AFTER the merchies in question were within a few miles of Port Stanley... except for the one already in there, with the soldiers boiling up from belowdecks and onto the warf seconds later.
But then, apparently MI-6 would have a firm handle on things, and Brown would already have issued orders to sink the merchies first, right?
If you had bothered to read my post, rather than just glancing at it, you would find that the first clue the UK would have would be the declaration of the invasion over the radio... which would come AFTER the merchies in question were within a few miles of Port Stanley... except for the one already in there, with the soldiers boiling up from belowdecks and onto the warf seconds later.
But then, apparently MI-6 would have a firm handle on things, and Brown would already have issued orders to sink the merchies first, right?
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,131
Received 27 Likes
on
16 Posts
Problem is both Cunard and P&O are now US-owned.
I always believed it was the port of register that determined which ships could be called up for service rather than the ownership of the vessels?
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Uk
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"So, knowitall... which UK politician is going to declare your "total exclusion zone" before anything happens at all?"
you can sink the other vessels and the re-supply though,
though if you can mount an invasion with half a dozen merchant ships it does make you wonder why our Navy (and yours for that matter) spend so much money on LPH/LPD's etc
you can sink the other vessels and the re-supply though,
though if you can mount an invasion with half a dozen merchant ships it does make you wonder why our Navy (and yours for that matter) spend so much money on LPH/LPD's etc
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I always believed it was the port of register that determined which ships could be called up for service rather than the ownership of the vessels?
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Exiled in England
Age: 48
Posts: 1,015
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely you didn't realise that we still have Maggie..........
Why do you think we kept her warm in the Lords for all these years??
As soon as it starts getting tricky Gordy an Swiss Des will all get the heave-ho and we combat start the Thatcher.
Mission 1, we long haul as many assets down south by private air
Mission 2, we "borrow" a spare carrier of the septics. We've always been good at that.
Mission 3 we intercept some Bears etc and force them to land, thereby aquireing some long range maritme strike.
Mission 4 We go to TVOC....
It will take a bit more land bases to borrow to get it down there
Mission 5 We issue ROE wie that states last man standing is the winner an start pasting people.
Mission 6 Big load of tea and medals along with Thachos rebuilding the forces to what we deserve them to be
Why do you think we kept her warm in the Lords for all these years??
As soon as it starts getting tricky Gordy an Swiss Des will all get the heave-ho and we combat start the Thatcher.
Mission 1, we long haul as many assets down south by private air
Mission 2, we "borrow" a spare carrier of the septics. We've always been good at that.
Mission 3 we intercept some Bears etc and force them to land, thereby aquireing some long range maritme strike.
Mission 4 We go to TVOC....
It will take a bit more land bases to borrow to get it down there
Mission 5 We issue ROE wie that states last man standing is the winner an start pasting people.
Mission 6 Big load of tea and medals along with Thachos rebuilding the forces to what we deserve them to be
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Shrewsbury, UK
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Worth a read. Its quite insightful!
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 816
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Going back to my point re: Red Arrows in FI.
Just out of interest (i know it's silly
), what chance would the Hawk/pilots have if they were to augment the Tornado F3s down there with Sidewinders and the Aden against the Argie Skyhawks and Mirages?
I should imagine the Hawk can out manoeuvre the Skyhawk or can it?
Just out of interest (i know it's silly
), what chance would the Hawk/pilots have if they were to augment the Tornado F3s down there with Sidewinders and the Aden against the Argie Skyhawks and Mirages?I should imagine the Hawk can out manoeuvre the Skyhawk or can it?
Originally Posted by Razor61
Just out of interest (i know it's silly ), what chance would the Hawk/pilots have if they were to augment the Tornado F3s down there with Sidewinders and the Aden against the Argie Skyhawks and Mirages?
I should imagine the Hawk can out manoeuvre the Skyhawk or can it?
I should imagine the Hawk can out manoeuvre the Skyhawk or can it?
, the Argie's have retired all their Skyhawks, and now just have the 32 x single seat A-4AR Fightinghawk's which were reworked/upgraded ex-USMC A-4M's....and delivered from Lockheed-Martin in the USA between 1997 and 1999.In the production of the aircraft, AAF technicians choose 32 A-4M and 4 TA-4F airframes from AMRAC. The up gradation process included complete overhaul of airframe, wires and engine, Douglas Escapac 1-G3 ejection seats, ALR-39 chaff or flare dispenser, Northrop Grumman AN/ALR-93 (V) 1radar warning receiver, 2 general dynamics information systems AN/AYK-14 mission computers, HGU-55/P helmet, Honeywell Normal Air-Garrett's on board oxygen generation system, MIL-STD-1553B data bus, Litton/Northrop-Grumman LN-100G inertial navigation system, Westinghouse/Northrop Grumman AN/APG-66V2 radar, Sextant Avionique/Thales Avionics SHUD and HOTAS controls and a 'glass' cockpit.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 1,771
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let me be quite clear, I'm not a pilot but worked on the Hawk & Harrier development trials at Dunsfold & elsewhere - ( before the designs were assimilated by the Borg to keep the Wart On wonder-bomber factory going ).
I wouldn't put my own money on an A-4 in AAC-if they were around - think the Hawk would run rings round them; The news of F-16's is a bit unsettling though !
The R.A.F. Hawks are about the crudest going, compared to export versions, but no doubt some mod' schemes would spring up, just as they did in a limited extent for Harrier FRS1's 25 years ago.
There are various modes with newish Sidewinders which make them very useful even without other sensors, so relatively 'stealthy' too combined with the Hawk airframe - though it is still a short range weapon especially against a fast retreating target.
There's always the Hawk 200 as well, which the R.A.F. have drooled over but never been able to fund ( if buying anything however for ---- sake go for Harrier 2+ )...
The H200 is not AMRAAM capable as far as I know due to launch velocity ( often wondered if a rocket-assisted version of the missile would be worthwhile ) but can use other medium range AA weapons - 'local' punters might be surprised at the stores the Hawk can carry.
P.S, I wouldn't like to be near the Houchin / cross on a hill with earth leads able to give M.Thatcher a re-start !
I wouldn't put my own money on an A-4 in AAC-if they were around - think the Hawk would run rings round them; The news of F-16's is a bit unsettling though !
The R.A.F. Hawks are about the crudest going, compared to export versions, but no doubt some mod' schemes would spring up, just as they did in a limited extent for Harrier FRS1's 25 years ago.
There are various modes with newish Sidewinders which make them very useful even without other sensors, so relatively 'stealthy' too combined with the Hawk airframe - though it is still a short range weapon especially against a fast retreating target.
There's always the Hawk 200 as well, which the R.A.F. have drooled over but never been able to fund ( if buying anything however for ---- sake go for Harrier 2+ )...
The H200 is not AMRAAM capable as far as I know due to launch velocity ( often wondered if a rocket-assisted version of the missile would be worthwhile ) but can use other medium range AA weapons - 'local' punters might be surprised at the stores the Hawk can carry.
P.S, I wouldn't like to be near the Houchin / cross on a hill with earth leads able to give M.Thatcher a re-start !
Last edited by Double Zero; 18th Dec 2007 at 00:13.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: by the Great Salt Lake, USA
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Note that these 32 single-seat aircraft have the 11,200 lb.s.t. J52-P-408 engine [rather than the 8,400 lb.s.t. J65-W-20 of the Comando de Aviacion Naval Argentina's A-4Qs (refurbished A-4Bs), or the 7,700 lb.s.t. J65-W-16A of the Fuerza Aerea Argentina's A-4Ps (refurbished A-4B/Cs) that flew in the Falklands War].
Faster (in the same load conditions), can sustain combat maneuvering longer, and can carry 9,900 lb of external payload vs the 5,000 lb of the earlier models.
Faster (in the same load conditions), can sustain combat maneuvering longer, and can carry 9,900 lb of external payload vs the 5,000 lb of the earlier models.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The H200 is not AMRAAM capable as far as I know due to launch velocity ( often wondered if a rocket-assisted version of the missile would be worthwhile ) "
How much faster than the Hawk is the AV-8B?
Also, arent all AMRAAMs rocket assisted...?
How much faster than the Hawk is the AV-8B?
Also, arent all AMRAAMs rocket assisted...?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SOUTH WEST
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the Hawk theory is not is not as daft as it sounds, when the T1's were first upgraded to T1A's in the eighties, it was with the aim of reinforcing the air deffence squadrons in the U.K. by providing additional assetts, the plan being that a flight of Hawks could be led by an F4 or Tornado (providing it wasn't a Blue Circle variant ) using their radar to get the Hawks into the vacinity until they were able to visually see the incoming threat, then get on with the job.
this plan was exercised and some unexpected results were gained, when the Hawks took on some far superior types and to the surprise of some of our NATO cousins actually beat them. This plan was designed to deal with mass red influx that was expected in those days, so could it not still be the case today ?. and dont forget, though the a/c may be getting on, there is still one thing in the a/c that nothing else can better , the british pilot,who can make even the dullest tool perform miracles, as has been seen on numerous occasions- real craftsmen
this plan was exercised and some unexpected results were gained, when the Hawks took on some far superior types and to the surprise of some of our NATO cousins actually beat them. This plan was designed to deal with mass red influx that was expected in those days, so could it not still be the case today ?. and dont forget, though the a/c may be getting on, there is still one thing in the a/c that nothing else can better , the british pilot,who can make even the dullest tool perform miracles, as has been seen on numerous occasions- real craftsmen
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 1,771
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BigBusDriver,
ever heard of booster rockets ? The AMRAAM like most missiles only ignites for a few seconds, then 'coasts' to the target - launch velocity is therefore vital, and in answer to your other question a Harrier 2+ will be doing a good 200 knots or more above the Hawk 200 - might not sound much but try sticking your hand out !
ever heard of booster rockets ? The AMRAAM like most missiles only ignites for a few seconds, then 'coasts' to the target - launch velocity is therefore vital, and in answer to your other question a Harrier 2+ will be doing a good 200 knots or more above the Hawk 200 - might not sound much but try sticking your hand out !
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 1,771
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BTW Thanks C.J; if it wasn't for the spelling I'd swear you are an old crew mate ( boats not a/c ) who now works on the Mighty Hunter - not the Hawker fighter sort...having said that I remember an interesting tale of an AIM-9L carrying Nimrod which in theory 'splashed' a couple of over-confident Tornados...
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: firmly on dry land
Age: 81
Posts: 1,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thing is though, the Celebrity ship I was on was largely crewed by Greeks with the Captain wearing the bars of a Rear-Admiral. I understand that P&O, as well as being British officered also sends at least one deck officer per ship to the RN Battle Damage Repair course.
I know which gang plank I would rather ascend.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Indeed, most of the P&O and Princess ships still fly the Red Ensign, but are registered in Hamilton Bermuda. So they are still on the British registry. That's a total of about 15 ships ranging between 30,000 and 115,000 tons each.
I thought the Celebrity ships were registered in the Bahamas? If it was Bermuda, they would be flying the Red Ensign which wouldn't go down well in some circles - and then of course the Captain would have to be British.
I thought the Celebrity ships were registered in the Bahamas? If it was Bermuda, they would be flying the Red Ensign which wouldn't go down well in some circles - and then of course the Captain would have to be British.