Victor/Canberra collision near Marham, 1968.
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Gainsley
You are absolutely right about the chances. However, in my same tour at Midland Radar we had another mid-air collision. A Varsity on a 'navex' with student navigators and some air cadets on board.
As I recall, the Varsity was transiting noth bound under airway Blue 1 somewhere in the vicinity of RAF Lindholme and was under a limited service due to the base of cover. I believe the Varsity was flying just on top of cloud cover. It was hit by a light aircraft climbing through the cloud (not working Midland Radar). The pilot of the light aircraft was killed ( I think an Army Major). Subsequent to the collision, I think the Captain of the Varsity claimed to have fallen out of the aircraft supervising the bail out of the crew. Sadly, an air cadet bailed out and then died after falling out of his parachute.
The Varsity was landed by the Co-pilot assisted by a student navigator in a field but hit a solitary tree ..I believe with no further fatalities.
This and the previous Victor/Canberra accident rather dented my belief in a mathematical model presented by a Flt Lt Bob Addreley while I was a student on the Joint Area Course at RAF Sopley (Yes, I am a knackered Old **** !). Bob's theory was that ' random track selection' was the best method of reducing the chance of a mid-air collision. Please bear in mind that at the time of his 'model' most airways were only 10 miles wide and military flying generated a huge amount of traffic.
As I recall, the Varsity was transiting noth bound under airway Blue 1 somewhere in the vicinity of RAF Lindholme and was under a limited service due to the base of cover. I believe the Varsity was flying just on top of cloud cover. It was hit by a light aircraft climbing through the cloud (not working Midland Radar). The pilot of the light aircraft was killed ( I think an Army Major). Subsequent to the collision, I think the Captain of the Varsity claimed to have fallen out of the aircraft supervising the bail out of the crew. Sadly, an air cadet bailed out and then died after falling out of his parachute.
The Varsity was landed by the Co-pilot assisted by a student navigator in a field but hit a solitary tree ..I believe with no further fatalities.
This and the previous Victor/Canberra accident rather dented my belief in a mathematical model presented by a Flt Lt Bob Addreley while I was a student on the Joint Area Course at RAF Sopley (Yes, I am a knackered Old **** !). Bob's theory was that ' random track selection' was the best method of reducing the chance of a mid-air collision. Please bear in mind that at the time of his 'model' most airways were only 10 miles wide and military flying generated a huge amount of traffic.
Yes, Him
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Dick,
I think the Varsity was in transit to/from Lindholme to/from the Donna Nook range. A few years earlier as a cadet, I used to cadge flights with them and BCBS's Hastings. Not many 13yr olds can claim to have aimed and dropped live bombs, albeit 25lbers, I wonder what the present-day PC Fun Police would make of that?
Sorry, thread drift.
I think the Varsity was in transit to/from Lindholme to/from the Donna Nook range. A few years earlier as a cadet, I used to cadge flights with them and BCBS's Hastings. Not many 13yr olds can claim to have aimed and dropped live bombs, albeit 25lbers, I wonder what the present-day PC Fun Police would make of that?
Sorry, thread drift.
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I was on 214 at the time of the accident and the Victor was from the TTF (Tanker Training Force). This was a seperate unit at Marham.
214 only had one mark 1A and that was 667.
The squadron was different to 55 and 57 in that it had eight Mk.1's and one 1A. The other two squadrons had the marks the other way around.
214 only had one mark 1A and that was 667.
The squadron was different to 55 and 57 in that it had eight Mk.1's and one 1A. The other two squadrons had the marks the other way around.
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Thread drift but I believe this led to the development of a new parachute harness with additional side straps as well as the conventional crotch and shoulder straps. As that type of harness could only be fitted by SE workers it would be too easy to get a bad fit.
Yes, Him
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A fellow Pruner, who wishes to preserve his/her anonimity has asked me to post the following (boldface):
The Wainfleet Range Log Book contains a simple entry:
2132Z Range closed. Message from Preston Centre SAR Ops.
There is no hint that an aircraft departing the range had been involved.
On the parachute harness (for use with clip-on chest para. pack) the squippers at Lindholme were always painstakingly meticulous in fitting it to a diminutive me in 1962-63. They never hinted at it, but a Space cadet pitching up at little or no notice, first thing in the morning must have been a right Royal pain in the arris for them.
The Wainfleet Range Log Book contains a simple entry:
2132Z Range closed. Message from Preston Centre SAR Ops.
There is no hint that an aircraft departing the range had been involved.
On the parachute harness (for use with clip-on chest para. pack) the squippers at Lindholme were always painstakingly meticulous in fitting it to a diminutive me in 1962-63. They never hinted at it, but a Space cadet pitching up at little or no notice, first thing in the morning must have been a right Royal pain in the arris for them.
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Thank you to you all those PPruners who have added to my knowledge of that tragic day. Also good to know that a few memories have been stirred and a bit of discussion started.
If anyone has anymore info please PM me, I might not be able to get back to you quick smart but I will appreciate any help at all.
So, fly safe. Always.
Petasus.
If anyone has anymore info please PM me, I might not be able to get back to you quick smart but I will appreciate any help at all.
So, fly safe. Always.
Petasus.
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I am not a techy so cant comment on the blips but I was a young civvy at the time and saw the tragic results.
My pal and I were travelling towards Holt in his ancient Morris Minor on the night of the incident. We were about 5 miles from Holt after Cowleys's finest had just managed to get us up one of the highest and steepest hills in Norfolk (about 300ft !) in second gear. Once at the top, we turned Westward into a dark and dismal night, even at this early hour of the night,with constant rain and drizzle.
Suddenly, the whole landscape was lit as daylight in a steady bright sodium type light such that we could clearly see each others puzzled faces. We stopped the car and got out and discussed what it could be. Innocently and foolishly, we thought it might be a nuclear first strike or an accidental explosion and if we would be able to see the mushroom cloud above the cloud base!! It should be remembered this was a short while after the Cuban Crisis and we were still deep into the Cold War. Additionally, just beyond Holt lay the USAF SAC base at Sculthorpe, the Bloodhound missile base of West Raynham and a bit further on RAF Marham. Behind us lay RAF Coltishall.
This 'daylight' lasted, to us, a very long time and there was an eerie silence to go with it until suddenly a lone bright flare like light spiralled down through the highlighted cloud base. Then was a gradual localised increase in the light over the Holt area, accompanied by an ever increasing roaring that reached a crescendo as a very bright flaming mass,accompanied by smaller but equally bright objects, broke through the cloud base and a few seconds later reverted the area back to blackness and silence.
We thought that because of the size of the 'asteroid' type fire, it may have been an airliner and we drove on towards Holt until we reached the outskirts of the town at a hamlet called High Kelling. Here we could see many pieces of smouldering wreckage and as mad as it seemed now, we picked up some with ref numbers on them and took them through the far side of Holt to the local small Police Station ! (We had left some 'cylinders' that were laying around as they looked menacing - anyway they didn't have ref numbers on that we could see. ) The station desk was being manned by one poor PC who must have thought WWW3 had started on his shift as the phone was going crazy and we were not the first to turn the station into Steptoe's backyard. Despite the mayhem all around him, he very politely declined our offer to bring him more wreckage in and advised all that we should leave all where it lay, go home and only report any casualties along the way.
It was amazing that as far as I am aware no one on the ground was seriously hurt but the whole area was shocked at the scale of the loss of life. Norfolk people used to have, and I think still have for the most part, a deep appreciation of the service personell stationed around us. Sadly with the loss most of the bases; Coltishall being the latest, it is becoming only a distant memory for most of us.
My pal and I were travelling towards Holt in his ancient Morris Minor on the night of the incident. We were about 5 miles from Holt after Cowleys's finest had just managed to get us up one of the highest and steepest hills in Norfolk (about 300ft !) in second gear. Once at the top, we turned Westward into a dark and dismal night, even at this early hour of the night,with constant rain and drizzle.
Suddenly, the whole landscape was lit as daylight in a steady bright sodium type light such that we could clearly see each others puzzled faces. We stopped the car and got out and discussed what it could be. Innocently and foolishly, we thought it might be a nuclear first strike or an accidental explosion and if we would be able to see the mushroom cloud above the cloud base!! It should be remembered this was a short while after the Cuban Crisis and we were still deep into the Cold War. Additionally, just beyond Holt lay the USAF SAC base at Sculthorpe, the Bloodhound missile base of West Raynham and a bit further on RAF Marham. Behind us lay RAF Coltishall.
This 'daylight' lasted, to us, a very long time and there was an eerie silence to go with it until suddenly a lone bright flare like light spiralled down through the highlighted cloud base. Then was a gradual localised increase in the light over the Holt area, accompanied by an ever increasing roaring that reached a crescendo as a very bright flaming mass,accompanied by smaller but equally bright objects, broke through the cloud base and a few seconds later reverted the area back to blackness and silence.
We thought that because of the size of the 'asteroid' type fire, it may have been an airliner and we drove on towards Holt until we reached the outskirts of the town at a hamlet called High Kelling. Here we could see many pieces of smouldering wreckage and as mad as it seemed now, we picked up some with ref numbers on them and took them through the far side of Holt to the local small Police Station ! (We had left some 'cylinders' that were laying around as they looked menacing - anyway they didn't have ref numbers on that we could see. ) The station desk was being manned by one poor PC who must have thought WWW3 had started on his shift as the phone was going crazy and we were not the first to turn the station into Steptoe's backyard. Despite the mayhem all around him, he very politely declined our offer to bring him more wreckage in and advised all that we should leave all where it lay, go home and only report any casualties along the way.
It was amazing that as far as I am aware no one on the ground was seriously hurt but the whole area was shocked at the scale of the loss of life. Norfolk people used to have, and I think still have for the most part, a deep appreciation of the service personell stationed around us. Sadly with the loss most of the bases; Coltishall being the latest, it is becoming only a distant memory for most of us.
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My understanding of the events on that night is; the Victor was climbing out of RAF Marham. The Canberra B(I)6 from No 213 Sqn, RAF Bruggen had been on a navigation exercise over the UK and had made a low-level bombing attack on a target in the Range at RAF Wainfleet. It was climbing on track (probably at about 3,000fpm) to return to base. Both aircraft were on different radio frequncies and thus unaware of each other.
I knew two pilots of both aircraft personally - Bill Gallienne in the Victor and Jack Slabber (a South African) in the Canberra.
I had been a pilot on No 213 Sqn for 3 years and had been posted back to the UK (to RAE Llanbedr) some 8 months earlier.
I knew two pilots of both aircraft personally - Bill Gallienne in the Victor and Jack Slabber (a South African) in the Canberra.
I had been a pilot on No 213 Sqn for 3 years and had been posted back to the UK (to RAE Llanbedr) some 8 months earlier.
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How strange that this thread should have popped up again today. Had a phone call this morning from a friend who lives near Holt. He remarked that one of his mates was walking dogs in woods near Holt on Sunday and the dogs unearthed some scraps of aluminium including a small access panel. The part number marked on the panel started with the letters EEP. 'English Electric Preston', from the Canberra?
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Victor Canberra collision 1968
Hi Petasus
Is the uncle you are enquiring about as the P2 on this flight Roger Stanley Morton? If so then we have a relative in common - he was my favourite cousin. I was told he was flying as Co-pilot on this flight, being appraised for promotion. He is listed on a previous post as Flt Lt but I also believed he was still technically a Flying Officer (according to an RAF website)
I too have recently started to investigate what happened in 1968 and have realised that it will be the 40th Anniversary of the crash this August. If Roger was your uncle, is it allowed for me to make contact with you outside this forum and if so how?
Is the uncle you are enquiring about as the P2 on this flight Roger Stanley Morton? If so then we have a relative in common - he was my favourite cousin. I was told he was flying as Co-pilot on this flight, being appraised for promotion. He is listed on a previous post as Flt Lt but I also believed he was still technically a Flying Officer (according to an RAF website)
I too have recently started to investigate what happened in 1968 and have realised that it will be the 40th Anniversary of the crash this August. If Roger was your uncle, is it allowed for me to make contact with you outside this forum and if so how?
I remember coming down to breakfast at Marham to find our batman confirming the terrible news of the night before. Roger Morton was a smashing chap and very popular on the Squadron (214) - he was particularly proud of his Mini Cooper S, as I remember.
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Victor Canberra collision
It was the 40th Anniversary of the crash today and I travelled to Holt and also the crematorium in Norwich to pay my respects to the airmen who died (one of whom was my cousin Roger Morton, as mentioned in a previous post)
It was very sad that it seemed that no-one, other than me, had chosen to mark this particular anniversary, despite my enquiries and prompting of the Town Council and the local newpaper over the last few weeks. RAF Marham had forgotten as well which was also sad.
I am not aware of any kind of memorial stone in the locality and, as it was raining heavily (but with no thunderstorms this time around!) it was impossible to get out and look for anything
A local reporter was also surprised that nothing official had been arranged and agreed to take some details and write a small piece in the local paper so that the pilots are remembered again, at least for a little while...
It was very sad that it seemed that no-one, other than me, had chosen to mark this particular anniversary, despite my enquiries and prompting of the Town Council and the local newpaper over the last few weeks. RAF Marham had forgotten as well which was also sad.
I am not aware of any kind of memorial stone in the locality and, as it was raining heavily (but with no thunderstorms this time around!) it was impossible to get out and look for anything
A local reporter was also surprised that nothing official had been arranged and agreed to take some details and write a small piece in the local paper so that the pilots are remembered again, at least for a little while...
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Victor Canberra collision
That's interesting - I'll have to see if I can get a transcript of the piece from the BBC (unfortunately I didn't hear it as I was travelling around the Holt area)
Many thanks
Many thanks
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Radio 4
Paper-Tiger,
It was mentioned on Radio 4's Day by Day programme. It looks at the items in the news 40 years ago. You can listen to it again on the net; just go to:
BBC - Radio 4 - 1968
and select the correct day.
It was mentioned on Radio 4's Day by Day programme. It looks at the items in the news 40 years ago. You can listen to it again on the net; just go to:
BBC - Radio 4 - 1968
and select the correct day.
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Marham Victor - Canberra Collision
I was an Air Cadet on annual camp at Marham when this happened.
I can still recall the light in the sky, and the sound of the explosion from the collision. None of us were sure what had happened, although the more "knowledgeable types" reckoned it was probably flares from the nearby range. However, the following morning, amongst all of the rumours, it became clear that something terrible had taken place. We were told that it was a "PR Canberra from Germany" that had collided with a fully fueled Victor on climb-out.
I vividly recall a couple of days later when they started bringing the wreckage into the airfield on low loaders - the smell is with me to this day, and is something that I hope never to experience again.
I can still recall the light in the sky, and the sound of the explosion from the collision. None of us were sure what had happened, although the more "knowledgeable types" reckoned it was probably flares from the nearby range. However, the following morning, amongst all of the rumours, it became clear that something terrible had taken place. We were told that it was a "PR Canberra from Germany" that had collided with a fully fueled Victor on climb-out.
I vividly recall a couple of days later when they started bringing the wreckage into the airfield on low loaders - the smell is with me to this day, and is something that I hope never to experience again.
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Victor Canberra collision
I have been told today that a memorial service will be held on Sunday 24th, at Holt Church
I cannot afford another 40 quid in petrol to travel up there again, so if anyone is in the area and goes to this service please could they post a short report on this forum?
thanks
I cannot afford another 40 quid in petrol to travel up there again, so if anyone is in the area and goes to this service please could they post a short report on this forum?
thanks
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Paper Tiger:
I'm saying this publicly because, over the internet, it would be a tad too easy to take advantage of me. I would appreciate some tangible proof of your attendance but, if you do attend the memorial service I'll shell out the required fourty pounds. Fair?
[Edit]
Sorry, I was distracted by a planning issue and hit send while trying to do something else. Tomorrow morning, 23/8/08, I am leaving for a fairly remote area of north Wisconsin. I may or may not be in "internet range" during that time. I have entered a note in my calendar to check back on this when I return.
I've PMed you too
[/Edit]
I'm saying this publicly because, over the internet, it would be a tad too easy to take advantage of me. I would appreciate some tangible proof of your attendance but, if you do attend the memorial service I'll shell out the required fourty pounds. Fair?
[Edit]
Sorry, I was distracted by a planning issue and hit send while trying to do something else. Tomorrow morning, 23/8/08, I am leaving for a fairly remote area of north Wisconsin. I may or may not be in "internet range" during that time. I have entered a note in my calendar to check back on this when I return.
I've PMed you too
[/Edit]
Last edited by Airborne Aircrew; 22nd Aug 2008 at 21:24.
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Victor Canberra collision
Re Church Memorial Service Sunday 24 Aug
Thank you so much to those kind people who offered to pay for my petrol to go to Holt again
Unfortunately it just wasn't possible for me to travel up there again this weekend and so I didn't make the service
Hopefully I stirred a few memories in the North Norfolk area, with the newspaper article, about the events of a stormy night 40 years ago
It's a shame I didn't know about the Memorial Service earlier so I could have planned my visit differently but I am happy that I was there on Tuesday 19th
I only began looking into the details of the air crash last March (I really don't know why, but I suddenly needed to know about my cousin...) and I have gained a lot of useful information from this forum - thank you to everyone who has contributed
Thank you so much to those kind people who offered to pay for my petrol to go to Holt again
Unfortunately it just wasn't possible for me to travel up there again this weekend and so I didn't make the service
Hopefully I stirred a few memories in the North Norfolk area, with the newspaper article, about the events of a stormy night 40 years ago
It's a shame I didn't know about the Memorial Service earlier so I could have planned my visit differently but I am happy that I was there on Tuesday 19th
I only began looking into the details of the air crash last March (I really don't know why, but I suddenly needed to know about my cousin...) and I have gained a lot of useful information from this forum - thank you to everyone who has contributed
Forty years ago this week, I was a 7 year old on holiday in a guest house in Sherringham with my parents. I can still recall room lighting up and my father looking out the window to see what had happened.
The next morning, we were invited into the guest house owners kitchen to view the small collection of wreckage he had acquired driving around the back of Sherringham - I recall a 6' long piece leaning against a wall.
Over the next few days walking along the stony beach at Sherringham, one could find everywhere tiny fragments of aluminium, obviously carried on the wind to the coast.
A tragic night...
N
The next morning, we were invited into the guest house owners kitchen to view the small collection of wreckage he had acquired driving around the back of Sherringham - I recall a 6' long piece leaning against a wall.
Over the next few days walking along the stony beach at Sherringham, one could find everywhere tiny fragments of aluminium, obviously carried on the wind to the coast.
A tragic night...
N