CAS finally speaks out
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Just got in from work and can't believe what I read!
Roland Pulfrew
What Torpy should have done was to go public, and tell this country that because of continuing cuts and lack of expenditure, he cannot provide an adequate Air Force to achieve the tasks that this government are asking of the service. He had the perfect chance to answer some of his critiques, and he chose instead to offer a weak and meaningless speech.
The public know we are whey past being streched (Look at the SH boys and the AT fleet), and everyone in the mob knows that too, it seems the only people who don't know are the airships. Torpy should have shown some balls and told the truth, instead of all this crap about simply being 'streched'
He is no more a leader of men than the Brown/Browne pair are, and they couldn't lead a dog! he should go now.
Whenurhappy
I think you are probably correct in your first para, but that doesn't mean that Torpy can't speak out against it all. He is the head of the RAF after all! But he has become, sadly, another YES man.
TSM
Roland Pulfrew
What Torpy should have done was to go public, and tell this country that because of continuing cuts and lack of expenditure, he cannot provide an adequate Air Force to achieve the tasks that this government are asking of the service. He had the perfect chance to answer some of his critiques, and he chose instead to offer a weak and meaningless speech.
The public know we are whey past being streched (Look at the SH boys and the AT fleet), and everyone in the mob knows that too, it seems the only people who don't know are the airships. Torpy should have shown some balls and told the truth, instead of all this crap about simply being 'streched'
He is no more a leader of men than the Brown/Browne pair are, and they couldn't lead a dog! he should go now.
Whenurhappy
I think you are probably correct in your first para, but that doesn't mean that Torpy can't speak out against it all. He is the head of the RAF after all! But he has become, sadly, another YES man.
TSM
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He just wants to retire with a Lordship. Sad really to sell 42 000 people out so that you can put Lord in front of your name.
Swinging Monkey
I am not sure the General Public really are aware that we are all way over stretched. Are they aware for example that there are 6 Flights return to the UK each week with Injured soldiers. Clearly upon reaching a certain point in the command chain the individuals concerned are given free Tamazipan for life, thats the only way I imagine that they can sleep at night.
Swinging Monkey
I am not sure the General Public really are aware that we are all way over stretched. Are they aware for example that there are 6 Flights return to the UK each week with Injured soldiers. Clearly upon reaching a certain point in the command chain the individuals concerned are given free Tamazipan for life, thats the only way I imagine that they can sleep at night.
By the by - if we'd followed Trenchardian doctrine, we'd have lost the Battle of Britain, since we'd have had an awful lot of Fairey Battles, and Fighter Command would've been dramatically understrength - far smaller than the Army (irony of ironies...) wanted it to be...
On a more general note, comments about how the MOD works and how the CAS has no authority or responsibility for various command functions directly bearing upon the Royal Air Force points up the dysfunctional mess that exists now. It is not only Airworthiness Regulation, as featured in the Nimrod thread, that needs massive reform but the MOD, the RAF and its sister services. If the senior officer of an armed service is not responsible in toto for that service, then no one is and anarchy results. That is what we have now, anarchy. Things need to change.
And without Trenchard, Dowding would have obtained his post-war commission a little more easily....
And just to stray OT a little further, we'd probably have had more Hurricanes than Battles, since the Army was keen on replicating what we'd done in 1917/18 with Sopwith Camels/DH5s, etc, etc {removes anorak to allow thread to get back on topic}
I would suggest that one of the things needs to change is the notion that while certain public servants can speak their minds (within reason) to the taxpayer without the expectation of instant resignation/dismissal, service chiefs can't say much at all without someone stating that they're on dangerous constitutional grounds.
Perhaps if the service cheifs were rebranded as 'Service Personnel Welfare Champions', expected to speak out for an under-represented (thanks to the foul up over voting registration...) group Gordon might take this idea on board...
And just to stray OT a little further, we'd probably have had more Hurricanes than Battles, since the Army was keen on replicating what we'd done in 1917/18 with Sopwith Camels/DH5s, etc, etc {removes anorak to allow thread to get back on topic}
I would suggest that one of the things needs to change is the notion that while certain public servants can speak their minds (within reason) to the taxpayer without the expectation of instant resignation/dismissal, service chiefs can't say much at all without someone stating that they're on dangerous constitutional grounds.
Perhaps if the service cheifs were rebranded as 'Service Personnel Welfare Champions', expected to speak out for an under-represented (thanks to the foul up over voting registration...) group Gordon might take this idea on board...
TSM
Don't be so naive. If you think he should have said more, just exactly what should he have said? Remember he is a serving officer and as such is a servant of the crown and therefore the government. Read what he said.
What more could he say without then being asked to resign. Resignation is unlikely to do anything with this Govt, so just exactly what would he achieve? Apart from making you happier - or would it? As I said earlier Damned if does, damned if he doesn't.
Don't be so naive. If you think he should have said more, just exactly what should he have said? Remember he is a serving officer and as such is a servant of the crown and therefore the government. Read what he said.
What more could he say without then being asked to resign. Resignation is unlikely to do anything with this Govt, so just exactly what would he achieve? Apart from making you happier - or would it? As I said earlier Damned if does, damned if he doesn't.
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As a Ground Branch Officer talk of ‘RAF overstretch’ amazes me consistently. The AT and SH fleets, plus certain Loggie and Comms Trades, have been absolutely hammered in recent times, but surely the pace of life is less frenetic for our (numerous) fast jet sqns? Could it not be argued that our current force structure is not fit for purpose in 2007? Change cannot occur overnight, will require considerable investment (fantasy time!!), and it is always difficult to predict future operational requirements, but from my vantage point our focal point is badly awry!
Whatever the pros and cons for calling for the CAS to go, am I alone in finding the stock reply to such a demand as "What good would it do" as very depressing? Time was one resigned because it was the right thing to do. Of course this government would not change tack because of one resignation, it would be arrogant of anyone to suppose that they were that important. But a track record of resignations would not be a desirable record for any government to earn and might indeed make them pause for thought at least. In any case the motivation should really be " I have failed to achieve what I should have done and it is my duty (to the country, the service, whatever) to go. Hopefully my successor will do better". Responsibility rests with the head honcho, as the Americans say, "the buck stops here". If the aircraft of the Royal Air Force are not airworthy because the regulations to ensure that have been systematically flouted for whatever reason then it is the CAS who is responsible for that. This is not a small issue, if the RAF is not about having appropriate and effective aircraft that are fit for purpose what is it about? That is why I call for his resignation. He must go as the first of many steps to right this scandal.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 6th Dec 2007 at 23:21.
Roland,
Mike Graydon had the guts to say more than Glen Torpy has done, at a time when speaking out made him more 'out of step' with public opinion, and with his political bosses, and thus made him more vulnerable. He wasn't sacked or forced to resign, however.
Many RN and Army senior officers have also gone further with their public statements in recent months, so I don't buy the idea that Torps said as much as he could say.
Where's the next Graydon?
Not Clive Loader, I suspect. Moran?
Mike Graydon had the guts to say more than Glen Torpy has done, at a time when speaking out made him more 'out of step' with public opinion, and with his political bosses, and thus made him more vulnerable. He wasn't sacked or forced to resign, however.
Many RN and Army senior officers have also gone further with their public statements in recent months, so I don't buy the idea that Torps said as much as he could say.
Where's the next Graydon?
Not Clive Loader, I suspect. Moran?
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After he had retired, Mike Graydon came to our sqn reunion dinner. In his prepared speech he said many people thought he should have resigned on principle while CAS. But he said he had an important job to do, and thus decided he had to stay and do it.
Wasn't everybody expecting Butch Burridge to be the current CAS? He was at STC, and the younger, less-experienced Torpy at PJHQ sidestepped him to be CAS-designate.
Wasn't everybody expecting Butch Burridge to be the current CAS? He was at STC, and the younger, less-experienced Torpy at PJHQ sidestepped him to be CAS-designate.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
There was never any question of CAS becoming a Lord. That honour was limited to CDS but probably also linked to 5* rank. No 5th star, no baronetcy?
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Although I would have liked him to go further with his statement by wording it a bit more forcefully, he is very effectively controlled by Stirrup (who I watched on a Sunday morning TV interview on Nov 11th saying everything within the Armed Forces was "hunky dorey", and everyone he'd spoken to was "happy that the equipment they have is second to none". He denied we were "over-stretched", saying we were merely "challenged". Semantics)
We have to resign ourselves to the fact that none of the Senior Officers have any control over their respective services any more. All the power lies with the gov't, and primarily with our part-time Secretary of State and our self-obsessed, directionless chancellor (sorry PM).
So long as the guys (and gals) at the coal face achieve the results the politicians want, it doesn't matter a damn what anyone in uniform says.
The only way anything will change is when the objectives AREN'T met, and to that end we are own worst enemies. We put in the extra effort, we buy the decent kit ourselves, we find "work-arounds", we "make-do".
Until we no longer do so, then everything in the ivory towers is "hunky dorey".
I'm not saying everyone should work to rule or revolt. I'm merely saying that we have absorbed past cuts with a grumble and made them work. Why should these cuts be any different?
We have to resign ourselves to the fact that none of the Senior Officers have any control over their respective services any more. All the power lies with the gov't, and primarily with our part-time Secretary of State and our self-obsessed, directionless chancellor (sorry PM).
So long as the guys (and gals) at the coal face achieve the results the politicians want, it doesn't matter a damn what anyone in uniform says.
The only way anything will change is when the objectives AREN'T met, and to that end we are own worst enemies. We put in the extra effort, we buy the decent kit ourselves, we find "work-arounds", we "make-do".
Until we no longer do so, then everything in the ivory towers is "hunky dorey".
I'm not saying everyone should work to rule or revolt. I'm merely saying that we have absorbed past cuts with a grumble and made them work. Why should these cuts be any different?
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Should Sir Glenn go who do you suggest steps up to the plate?
We have to resign ourselves to the fact that none of the Senior Officers have any control over their respective services any more.
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I like the sentiment, and support it whole-heartedly, but cannot for the life of me ever see it happening.
It's great to say that this or that should be done, but actually getting someone with enough balls behind it is the hard part.
Unfortunately until the country as a whole throws off the effects of Political Correctness Gone Mad, the MoD/Govt will do nowt to rectify our current situation.
It's great to say that this or that should be done, but actually getting someone with enough balls behind it is the hard part.
Unfortunately until the country as a whole throws off the effects of Political Correctness Gone Mad, the MoD/Govt will do nowt to rectify our current situation.
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Here's a point to ponder- would you do it?
If you met Torpy, would you have the guts to tell him (probably in front of your boss, boss's boss, your boss's boss's boss, etc) what you think of his speech? A lot of us put our lives on the line daily, but we are all too scared to tell those that can make a difference exactly what we think, usually because, actually, we are acting in self preservation for our jobs.
What could be done to you?
You'd have your hat on shortly afterwards, but, don't they all like to hear our opinions???
You'd become a hero!!!
SMT
If you met Torpy, would you have the guts to tell him (probably in front of your boss, boss's boss, your boss's boss's boss, etc) what you think of his speech? A lot of us put our lives on the line daily, but we are all too scared to tell those that can make a difference exactly what we think, usually because, actually, we are acting in self preservation for our jobs.
What could be done to you?
You'd have your hat on shortly afterwards, but, don't they all like to hear our opinions???
You'd become a hero!!!
SMT
moosemaster wrote:
So who ever said it would be easy? The way things are going now, the Royal Air Force and its sister services are shrinking into oblivion. I feel like the little boy pointing out the Emperor’s lack of proper attire here. Does no one else see what I see? A once powerful and awesome force that was crucial to the saving of this country from shameful defeat and that became instrumental in the overwhelming defeat of its enemies is reduced to this dysfunctional ineptitude, unable even to keep its own aircraft airworthy! Of course the present leadership must go, and go now. To the best of its abilities the RAF must pull itself out of this morass by its own bootstraps. Agreed that the politicians have the final word, but even this government must learn that death by a thousand cuts is doing the work our enemies (and there are plenty, patiently waiting) could never hope to do. The big problem, I hope that everyone (well with obvious exceptions of course) agrees, is the Ministry of Defence. This perversion of what that title implies may not have been the worst of Mountbatten's bright ideas, but it's certainly turned out to be a dandy! It needs someone many times abler than he, so let's just say able, to reform it from top to bottom. The CoSs must be given back their powers to command, indeed that goes for all layers of command, most especially subordinate commanders. The administrative quangos and other such creatures must be scrapped, the airworthiness regulatory powers must be put into the hands of an independent MAA. Whatever size the Armed Forces end up as, they must at least be self sustaining. Of course the government determines the budget, determines the tasks, but the one must provide for the other. If as now the Military Covenant is breached repeatedly, unlike now the Chiefs must quit, that is the compact with those they lead. In short we must get back to respect, respect for our leaders and those they lead. HMG, by its actions, shows precious little sign of either right now.
It's great to say that this or that should be done, but actually getting someone with enough balls behind it is the hard part.
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Roland Pulfrew
Don't be so naive. If you think he should have said more, just exactly what should he have said? Remember he is a serving officer and as such is a servant of the crown and therefore the government. Read what he said.
What more could he say without then being asked to resign. Resignation is unlikely to do anything with this Govt, so just exactly what would he achieve? Apart from making you happier - or would it? As I said earlier Damned if does, damned if he doesn't.
Jackonickko
Roland,
Mike Graydon had the guts to say more than Glen Torpy has done, at a time when speaking out made him more 'out of step' with public opinion, and with his political bosses, and thus made him more vulnerable. He wasn't sacked or forced to resign, however.
Many RN and Army senior officers have also gone further with their public statements in recent months, so I don't buy the idea that Torps said as much as he could say.
Where's the next Graydon?
Mike Graydon had the guts to say more than Glen Torpy has done, at a time when speaking out made him more 'out of step' with public opinion, and with his political bosses, and thus made him more vulnerable. He wasn't sacked or forced to resign, however.
Many RN and Army senior officers have also gone further with their public statements in recent months, so I don't buy the idea that Torps said as much as he could say.
Where's the next Graydon?
Turkeys voting for Christmas
I have been browsing the postings in this thread and mostly nodding my head in agreement to the sentiments expressed (especially Chugalug's), but come on guys, do you really expect anybody in Main Building to actually do anything on principle? There are too many self-seeking, self-serving civil & Service serpents infesting the organisation.
Like other public structures (Metropolitan Police, HM Customs & Excise etc), the structure of the MOD is suffering from an excess of PC, years of educational underachievement and (even more sad to say) a complete lack of understanding and empathy with what those on the front line need and deserve
LL
Like other public structures (Metropolitan Police, HM Customs & Excise etc), the structure of the MOD is suffering from an excess of PC, years of educational underachievement and (even more sad to say) a complete lack of understanding and empathy with what those on the front line need and deserve
LL
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Lyneham Lad
... nodding my head in agreement to the sentiments expressed (especially Chugalug's)
And I suppose, come the crunch, we get on and do it and invariably succeed each time, which only serves to indicate to the politicians that they're are generally getting things right. Unfortunately, it might take a big operational failure to change things .... God forbid!