Deployment Routes across the N.Atlantic
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Deployment Routes across the N.Atlantic
Why do RAF Deployments always route to the States via Lajes whereas the Royal Netherlands Air Force, German Air Force and USAFE etc route straight across the top with no enroute stop half way across the Atlantic even though they end up at the same destination?
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Southerly route = warmer seas = better chance of survival if ditching, esp. during the winter.
That, I believe is the theory.
(Lajes is seldom full of booze once a RAF Herc has been through.)
That, I believe is the theory.
(Lajes is seldom full of booze once a RAF Herc has been through.)
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Correct me if i'm wrong but i think the only RAF jets to route through without going via Lajes this year have been a couple of Typhoons on one or so occassions, every deployment otherwise has gone via Lajes (i'm probably wrong though).
How many days does it take the RAF to get to Nellis?
I'm sure the other European forces including USAFE which route via 56N/60N take less time to reach the same destination?
Also, up until a few years ago we were i believe the only country to add in a MARPAT aircraft into the trail to provide SAR Top Cover on the trails to Lajes and then beyond. Why was the RAF the only country to do so over the Atlantic and why have they stopped all of a sudden?
How many days does it take the RAF to get to Nellis?
I'm sure the other European forces including USAFE which route via 56N/60N take less time to reach the same destination?
Also, up until a few years ago we were i believe the only country to add in a MARPAT aircraft into the trail to provide SAR Top Cover on the trails to Lajes and then beyond. Why was the RAF the only country to do so over the Atlantic and why have they stopped all of a sudden?
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funny thing that the Italian air force
and French all routed through lajes when coming back from Red flag!!!!
How many jets do the germans trail with??
has an effect on how far they can go you know!
and French all routed through lajes when coming back from Red flag!!!!
How many jets do the germans trail with??
has an effect on how far they can go you know!
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Winds aloft and enroute weather are significant players, but more so the fuel capacity and refuelling equipment of the tankers. Then there is also the consideration of the refuelling plan. Different Air Forces have different procedures for ensuring receivers don't run out of fuel and those procedures can determine the route of flight relevant to available diversion airfields.
Overall, the main driving factor on any overwater deployment is the guarantee that nobody in the formation will run out of fuel.
As for the question 'how long to get to Vegas?', 'how long is a piece of string?' There are so many variables, but if you take, say, 2 Tornado GRs, and one tanker to get them there, and the tanker and receivers stay serviceable, and you route by any available route from, say, Leuchars to Nellis, then it will usually take 3 days. Day one, Leuchars to Nova Scotia or Azores, land before nightfall.... Day two, on to next point that might be 2/3 of the entire route, or around 3/4, depending on where stop one was, then day three to Nellis. Changing the receivers, or the tanker type, or putting a force extention into the plan can get the journey down to 2 days fairly easily or just 1 with a bit of effort. But, then there is a balance between the cost of extra tankers to force extend versus an extra night in a posh hotel and a drainpipe full of fish in Lajes. The 3 day route might sound like costing more to pay for the tanker crews' rates, but it might still cost less than launching extra tankers, more direct routes and the associated SAR cover required.
I could go on.
Overall, the main driving factor on any overwater deployment is the guarantee that nobody in the formation will run out of fuel.
As for the question 'how long to get to Vegas?', 'how long is a piece of string?' There are so many variables, but if you take, say, 2 Tornado GRs, and one tanker to get them there, and the tanker and receivers stay serviceable, and you route by any available route from, say, Leuchars to Nellis, then it will usually take 3 days. Day one, Leuchars to Nova Scotia or Azores, land before nightfall.... Day two, on to next point that might be 2/3 of the entire route, or around 3/4, depending on where stop one was, then day three to Nellis. Changing the receivers, or the tanker type, or putting a force extention into the plan can get the journey down to 2 days fairly easily or just 1 with a bit of effort. But, then there is a balance between the cost of extra tankers to force extend versus an extra night in a posh hotel and a drainpipe full of fish in Lajes. The 3 day route might sound like costing more to pay for the tanker crews' rates, but it might still cost less than launching extra tankers, more direct routes and the associated SAR cover required.
I could go on.
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14Greens
The Italians and French have always gone via Lajes because Italy and France are at a lower latitude than the British or Germans etc!
They go from their home bases straight across to Lajes. Why would they travel much further north and travel across the higher latitudes?
The Italians and French have always gone via Lajes because Italy and France are at a lower latitude than the British or Germans etc!
They go from their home bases straight across to Lajes. Why would they travel much further north and travel across the higher latitudes?
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It might of been a particular set of circumstances but a couple of years ago I caught a lift on a VC10 on the northern route, via Gander (for a refuel) down the east coast of the US en-route to Belize.
A truly enjoyable and unique experience of flying seated facing in the opposite direction of travel, especially when after a few hours you glance out of the window prior to landing and double take at the scenery, going at what you think for a split second is the wrong way!
A truly enjoyable and unique experience of flying seated facing in the opposite direction of travel, especially when after a few hours you glance out of the window prior to landing and double take at the scenery, going at what you think for a split second is the wrong way!
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razor6
for yr info having done trails both up north and the southern route, a lot depends on weather! available diversions, and somewhere sensible if the fighters divert that the tanker can go with them, obviously number of chicks in tow and available give
So lajes
bangor
LSV
3 days whats the problem with that??
not forgetting the germans still have hangers in goose and we dont so it crap weather they have some protection for the chicks
In other words, we do what works for us
they do what works for them
for yr info having done trails both up north and the southern route, a lot depends on weather! available diversions, and somewhere sensible if the fighters divert that the tanker can go with them, obviously number of chicks in tow and available give
So lajes
bangor
LSV
3 days whats the problem with that??
not forgetting the germans still have hangers in goose and we dont so it crap weather they have some protection for the chicks
In other words, we do what works for us
they do what works for them
SAR trails
A year or two ago the Portugese Air Force did SAR escort for some Belgian and German jets en route Maple Flag. The needed the cash so they hired themselves and the crew out. And we thjink we're hard-up?
The Ancient Mariner
PS Oh and they went the northern route.
The Ancient Mariner
PS Oh and they went the northern route.
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I get your points regarding the weather but that doesn't stop the USAF or whoever from going across the northern route whereas on the same day the RAF will choose (pretty much all year round) to go the southern route... and take longer to get there. (and break down on the way).
Is that the main case of routing through Lajes? Because the weather is obviously much better most of the year round compared with the North Atlantic northern route?
Is that the main case of routing through Lajes? Because the weather is obviously much better most of the year round compared with the North Atlantic northern route?
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The Northern Route is generally not done- the duty of care in the event of something bad happening to the receivers is generally given as a reason. This was batted up to AOC1 Gp and was his decision last time it was mooted.
UK-Lajes-East Coast USA generally gives the best spread of abort point airfields- would the FJ guys really be happy about diverting to Iqualit with 1000kg overhead?- and weather factors.
There hasn't been any UK MPA assets on a trail for a while AFAIK- the new SOP is for the FJs have the handheld maritime radios, so can summon help if the worst was to happen. (no, really)
With tanker availability being scarcer than in the old days, quite often the FJs are trailed as far as the East Coast and deployment further west is unaccompanied.
WRT the Portuguese MPA crew "hiring themselves out" the UKAAR force regularly trails European air forces in return for AT hours.
UK-Lajes-East Coast USA generally gives the best spread of abort point airfields- would the FJ guys really be happy about diverting to Iqualit with 1000kg overhead?- and weather factors.
There hasn't been any UK MPA assets on a trail for a while AFAIK- the new SOP is for the FJs have the handheld maritime radios, so can summon help if the worst was to happen. (no, really)
With tanker availability being scarcer than in the old days, quite often the FJs are trailed as far as the East Coast and deployment further west is unaccompanied.
WRT the Portuguese MPA crew "hiring themselves out" the UKAAR force regularly trails European air forces in return for AT hours.
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Throw into Goldcup's, er, cup, the available fuel loads of the different ac. VC10 might have 70 tons, KC10 (or KDC10) might have up to 130 tons available. Then consider the differences between an RAF 'trail' and a USAF 'coronet'; each have different policies wrt aborts and fuel reserves. In summary, the available offloads and the national procedures could mean the difference between a one-shot crossing and a stage enroute. Or so I hear, etc.
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Money is a little tight in Portugal at present. They have however l replaced their Puma's with Merlins and are MLU- ing their F-16's so maybe were not that much better off!