Deployment Routes across the N.Atlantic
Is 'Ten Percent Carlos' still sorting everything at Lajes?
Top chap - once put me up in the Presidential Suite at the best hotel on the island!
Re. the USAF/RAF trail planning, my colleagues tell me that they were planned for about 8 brackets on a Goose - N Europe trip. Whereas under UK rules only 3 or 4 would have been needed....
They also told me of the rather chaotic American system where the fast jets do their own planning and just tell the tanker what they think they want - if anything goes wrong in flight some FJ child minder in the back of the 135 replans it. Whereas the UK's 'AARCs' plan the whole deal more effectively, using less assets and the crew are trained to rework the plan for in-flight events.
Top chap - once put me up in the Presidential Suite at the best hotel on the island!
Re. the USAF/RAF trail planning, my colleagues tell me that they were planned for about 8 brackets on a Goose - N Europe trip. Whereas under UK rules only 3 or 4 would have been needed....
They also told me of the rather chaotic American system where the fast jets do their own planning and just tell the tanker what they think they want - if anything goes wrong in flight some FJ child minder in the back of the 135 replans it. Whereas the UK's 'AARCs' plan the whole deal more effectively, using less assets and the crew are trained to rework the plan for in-flight events.
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Once got stuck in Lajes for an entire week, and it can be a VERY small island after you've visited every restaurant.....twice!
Once spent the best part of a night trekking the island in howling rain, with the intention of "Borrowing" the name plate for the town of "Fonte Bastardo". Imagine our deep joy at finding it securely fastened with 8 large U-Bolts, and us armed with nothing more imaginative than a pair of Gerbers!
Flipflopman
Once spent the best part of a night trekking the island in howling rain, with the intention of "Borrowing" the name plate for the town of "Fonte Bastardo". Imagine our deep joy at finding it securely fastened with 8 large U-Bolts, and us armed with nothing more imaginative than a pair of Gerbers!
Flipflopman
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Quite a few USAF deployments coming into Northern Europe go via Lajes, for example Spang A-10s returning from the US last month stopped in Lajes then routed over the SW of England and across the south of the UK to Germany. A few days later four Polish F-16s on delivery came via Lajes I gather and did roughly the same routing.
The USAF appear to have had a change of policy a few years back regarding Coronets (can't remeber the year but it was in the mid to late '90s I think) in that most USAF FJ units going to and from the Gulf from the US routed via USAFE bases in Northrn Europe. Whatever type was transiting tended to use a base that had the same type, so F-15s used Lakenheath while F-16s would use Spangdahlem for example. However, this policy changed and all FJ deployments going to the Gulf or points East started going the more direct Southerly route either stopping in Lajes or the first stopping off point in Europe would be at Moron (USAF have a presence there) or Rota (US Navy presence). Rota is favoured by USMC deployments. As a result, you don't get Coronets bound for the Gulf etc coming anywhere near the UK. Only when the final destination is in Northern Europe do US deploying FJs come up north.
The USAF appear to have had a change of policy a few years back regarding Coronets (can't remeber the year but it was in the mid to late '90s I think) in that most USAF FJ units going to and from the Gulf from the US routed via USAFE bases in Northrn Europe. Whatever type was transiting tended to use a base that had the same type, so F-15s used Lakenheath while F-16s would use Spangdahlem for example. However, this policy changed and all FJ deployments going to the Gulf or points East started going the more direct Southerly route either stopping in Lajes or the first stopping off point in Europe would be at Moron (USAF have a presence there) or Rota (US Navy presence). Rota is favoured by USMC deployments. As a result, you don't get Coronets bound for the Gulf etc coming anywhere near the UK. Only when the final destination is in Northern Europe do US deploying FJs come up north.
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North v South Trails
You would quite often find the AARCs being told by 2 Gp that they have to be more efficient at the way they conduct business, only to be told by 1 Gp that as far as they were concerned the Northern route was not a player (for most of the time) because of weather/sea temps. That said the weather at Lajes can be a pig for a vast majority of the year and please tell me if you know anybody who has not been delayed at Lajes due to strong x-winds. On balance Lajes was the preferred destination.
As to timescales there is absolutely no reason why you cannot reach the East Coast of the States/Canada in a day even with refuelling at Lajes. The problem is that you face an uphill battle as soon as delays start creeping in. So, if a Trail did run to plan and everyone was airborne on time from the UK to Lajes, there was plenty of daylight/Crew duty left to mount a second leg from Lajes. Unfortunately, the airspace reservations etc etc that the AARC has gone to considerable length to arrange would not be valid. Therefore, to the gutter press and fun police, it comes across as the though the tanking force/AARCs have arranged a damn good jolly.
As to timescales there is absolutely no reason why you cannot reach the East Coast of the States/Canada in a day even with refuelling at Lajes. The problem is that you face an uphill battle as soon as delays start creeping in. So, if a Trail did run to plan and everyone was airborne on time from the UK to Lajes, there was plenty of daylight/Crew duty left to mount a second leg from Lajes. Unfortunately, the airspace reservations etc etc that the AARC has gone to considerable length to arrange would not be valid. Therefore, to the gutter press and fun police, it comes across as the though the tanking force/AARCs have arranged a damn good jolly.
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I know of at least 10 trails this year that have not delayed in Lajes either arriving or departing with strong x winds/bad weather/ sea states etc etc etc. Where did you get your information from?
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LJ101
Information that I have amassed from doing many trails myself. Oh the happy times sitting on the island of Terceira waiting for the wind to die down. Another beer sir!!!
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Don't really see where you two guys are coming from/arguing about.
Yes, sometimes the trail arrives on time and it would be possible (although I put it to you not particularly sensible) to mount another westbound leg to the eastern seaboard in the same day. However, given that an ALTRV booking cannot be rolled indefinitely, surely a pragmatist would book the airspace from UK to Lajes on day one, consolidate the assets and press further west with what is available after the engineers have worked their magic on day two.
Generally if the trail delays in Lajes it is due to weather on the eastern seaboard. Going on the northern route wouldn't make a difference in this respect.
For all the faults you can lay at the door of 2Gp, I put it to you that pressurising the AARCs in to doing translatlantic trails in a day is not one of them.
Trails are a variable feast- no two are the same.
Yes, sometimes the trail arrives on time and it would be possible (although I put it to you not particularly sensible) to mount another westbound leg to the eastern seaboard in the same day. However, given that an ALTRV booking cannot be rolled indefinitely, surely a pragmatist would book the airspace from UK to Lajes on day one, consolidate the assets and press further west with what is available after the engineers have worked their magic on day two.
Generally if the trail delays in Lajes it is due to weather on the eastern seaboard. Going on the northern route wouldn't make a difference in this respect.
For all the faults you can lay at the door of 2Gp, I put it to you that pressurising the AARCs in to doing translatlantic trails in a day is not one of them.
Trails are a variable feast- no two are the same.
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Goldcup
Think you need to check your knowledge of ALTREVs, particularly since the changes that were introduced by CARF and EUCARF. No room for pragmatism I am afraid. If the AARCs did plan for a second crossing on the same day and,alas, there were to be some unserviceabilities culminating in a night stop Lajes, the whole trail would have to wait potentially for another 3 days whilst the ALTREV was further secured.
Securing airspace is no guarantee. Therefore, the pragmatist would build in a lot of flex, which means the trail will take longer (number of days) than is feasibly possible, but gets there sooner.
Hope that helps
Regards
GD
Securing airspace is no guarantee. Therefore, the pragmatist would build in a lot of flex, which means the trail will take longer (number of days) than is feasibly possible, but gets there sooner.
Hope that helps
Regards
GD
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Of course, the ALTRV (Not ALTREV) is only procedurally applicable to FAA airspace (as explained in the foreword to FAA order 7610.4K), In other areas it is an agreed policy governed by MOUs. Nevertheless, EUCARF does provide the pathway for ALTRV requests for trails/coronets in Europe and are not able to extend AVANAs if there are other trails/coronets booked along the same route/levels as the delayed formation. So it could realistically be considered a gamble to book 2 successive ALTRVs on the same day. Etc. 
