Hats- why bother?
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Knights also raised their visors so they could be recognised. They would probably have done this with the palm facing down.
"As an aside the reason why the army and RAF salute with palm outwards whilst the navy salute palm down is palm outward salute is a reaffirmation of an oath of allegiance, the navy being considered always loyal to the monarch are not required to make such an oath."
I was always told that the Navy salute palm down because Queen Victoria did not like to see sailors' dirty hands.
"As an aside the reason why the army and RAF salute with palm outwards whilst the navy salute palm down is palm outward salute is a reaffirmation of an oath of allegiance, the navy being considered always loyal to the monarch are not required to make such an oath."
I was always told that the Navy salute palm down because Queen Victoria did not like to see sailors' dirty hands.
Last edited by goudie; 28th Nov 2007 at 11:01.
Just after the 1964 change of insignier came out a brand new keen as mustard J/T out of Henlow gave me a blistering salute and I returned it. As he walked away I remarked.
"Is that a new ATC uniform?"
Ouch!!!!
Didn't tell us ignorant aircrew about it, did they.
"Is that a new ATC uniform?"
Ouch!!!!
Didn't tell us ignorant aircrew about it, did they.
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Ever see an hofficer with a shaped beret?
Well it looks smarter than that awful beret.
I only ever saw rock officers with decently shaped berets. If you do nothing to them they will always look rubbish.
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well obviously hats are just for show in the pocket not the head
While in Bath today UAS student in flying suit!!! (why is the question) but there ya go
When i suggested he put his hat on the question came back "Why?"
give the lad his due he was quite embarressed as he was with is girlie at the time but did agree with me when i suggested if he wants to wear the uniform he should show some pride
Time to ring his boss now i think hee heeeeee
ooh am being a victor meldrew today
While in Bath today UAS student in flying suit!!! (why is the question) but there ya go
When i suggested he put his hat on the question came back "Why?"
give the lad his due he was quite embarressed as he was with is girlie at the time but did agree with me when i suggested if he wants to wear the uniform he should show some pride
Time to ring his boss now i think hee heeeeee
ooh am being a victor meldrew today
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Regarding 'throwing one up'. I find it strange that RM salute open handed whilst RN salute palm down.
Taken from the RAF website:
"The custom of saluting commissioned officers relates wholly to the commission given by Her Majesty the Queen to that officer, not the person. Therefore, when a subordinate airman salutes an officer, he is indirectly acknowledging Her Majesty as Head of State. A salute returned by the officer is on behalf of the Queen.As with many things in military history, the origin of the custom of saluting is a little obscure. In a book called 'Military Customs', Major TJ Edwards suggests that 'saluting and the paying of compliments may be said to proceed from the exercise of good manners'. Indeed, if you take the word saluting literally, it is merely the offering of a salutation or greeting, which in the military must be reciprocated.
A more romantic theory dates from medieval times which suggests that victors at the many tournaments of the day shielded their eyes with their hands when receiving their prize from the Queen, rather than be dazzled by her beauty. This is very unlikely, but far more chivalrous. A far more plausible tale relates that the military salute is merely a form of offering an open hand as a token of respect and friendship in much the same way as a handshake does. Knights in the Middle Ages greeted each other by raising the visor of their armour, an action not unlike a military salute.
During the 17th Century, military records detail that the 'formal act of saluting was to be by removal of headdress' For some time after, hat raising became an accepted form of the military salute, but in the 18th Century the Coldstream Guards amended this procedure. They were instructed to 'clap their hands to their hats and bow as they pass by'. This was quickly adopted by other Regiments as wear and tear on the hats by constant removal and replacing was a matter of great concern. By the early 19th Century, the salute had evolved further with the open hand, palm to the front, and this has remained the case since then.
The RAF salute is essentially the same as that of the Army. When RAF personnel hand salute they display an open hand, positioned such that the finger tips almost, but not quite, touch the hat band. The Naval salute differs in that the palm of the hand faces down towards the shoulder. This dates back to the days of sailing ships, when tar and pitch were used to seal the timber from seawater. To protect their hands, officer wore white gloves and it was considered most undignified to present a dirty palm in the salute so the hand was turned through 90 degrees."
Taken from the RAF website:
"The custom of saluting commissioned officers relates wholly to the commission given by Her Majesty the Queen to that officer, not the person. Therefore, when a subordinate airman salutes an officer, he is indirectly acknowledging Her Majesty as Head of State. A salute returned by the officer is on behalf of the Queen.As with many things in military history, the origin of the custom of saluting is a little obscure. In a book called 'Military Customs', Major TJ Edwards suggests that 'saluting and the paying of compliments may be said to proceed from the exercise of good manners'. Indeed, if you take the word saluting literally, it is merely the offering of a salutation or greeting, which in the military must be reciprocated.
A more romantic theory dates from medieval times which suggests that victors at the many tournaments of the day shielded their eyes with their hands when receiving their prize from the Queen, rather than be dazzled by her beauty. This is very unlikely, but far more chivalrous. A far more plausible tale relates that the military salute is merely a form of offering an open hand as a token of respect and friendship in much the same way as a handshake does. Knights in the Middle Ages greeted each other by raising the visor of their armour, an action not unlike a military salute.
During the 17th Century, military records detail that the 'formal act of saluting was to be by removal of headdress' For some time after, hat raising became an accepted form of the military salute, but in the 18th Century the Coldstream Guards amended this procedure. They were instructed to 'clap their hands to their hats and bow as they pass by'. This was quickly adopted by other Regiments as wear and tear on the hats by constant removal and replacing was a matter of great concern. By the early 19th Century, the salute had evolved further with the open hand, palm to the front, and this has remained the case since then.
The RAF salute is essentially the same as that of the Army. When RAF personnel hand salute they display an open hand, positioned such that the finger tips almost, but not quite, touch the hat band. The Naval salute differs in that the palm of the hand faces down towards the shoulder. This dates back to the days of sailing ships, when tar and pitch were used to seal the timber from seawater. To protect their hands, officer wore white gloves and it was considered most undignified to present a dirty palm in the salute so the hand was turned through 90 degrees."
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ArthurR,
As an ex BE (40th) I seem to remember the brass four bladed prop was worn on the left sleeve. The hat badge was the normal RAF but the hat band was chequered (colours indicating ITS, Wing etc) instead of black.
How sad, being so picky, sorry.
s37
As an ex BE (40th) I seem to remember the brass four bladed prop was worn on the left sleeve. The hat badge was the normal RAF but the hat band was chequered (colours indicating ITS, Wing etc) instead of black.
How sad, being so picky, sorry.
s37
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'I find it strange that RM salute open handed whilst RN salute palm down'
I think you'll find the Royal Marines have never considered themselves as 'Navy' .
I think you'll find the Royal Marines have never considered themselves as 'Navy' .
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Your quite right goudie, to me they were just our taxi service, however in the cold light of day we are part of the Navy (although not in disgrace).
Just wondered why the salutes are different. I wonder if they were different during the times of the RMLI, time for some research methinks.
Just wondered why the salutes are different. I wonder if they were different during the times of the RMLI, time for some research methinks.
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"Top o' the morn' to 'ee Sor! The loiks o' us be beholden to the likes of 'ee Sor!"
One was under the impression that the salute originated in the custom of forelock tugging. Because peasants couldn't afford hats and went bare headed, when the master rode by on his horse, they jumped into the ditch to clear his path and tugged their forelocks to their masters as a substitute.
The master would return the greeting by touching his hat as if to remove it, but without actually removing it for mere peasants.
When riding past a lady, a master would whip off his hat and bow deeply in his saddle - ostensibly out of respect, but in reality to better enable him to peer down her decolletage without causing embarrassment to either party. The lady would reciprocate by doffing her parasol in order to give him a better view.
The master would return the greeting by touching his hat as if to remove it, but without actually removing it for mere peasants.
When riding past a lady, a master would whip off his hat and bow deeply in his saddle - ostensibly out of respect, but in reality to better enable him to peer down her decolletage without causing embarrassment to either party. The lady would reciprocate by doffing her parasol in order to give him a better view.
I only ever saw rock officers with decently shaped berets. If you do nothing to them they will always look rubbish.
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Hats, Who needs them?
'I'm a Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldr and I don't need a hat to do my job.'
Nor the three rings on your sleeve presumably!
'I'm a Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldr and I don't need a hat to do my job.'
Nor the three rings on your sleeve presumably!
Last edited by goudie; 29th Nov 2007 at 10:01.
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Concur RN salute to hide calloused and tarry seamen's palms. (no smut please) Touching/doffing hats continued quite late. There is a splendid passage in Captain Marryat's "Mr Midshipman Easy" (famous for the excuse for an illigitimate child "that it was only a little one") where the hero, a philosopher's son and egalitarian decides the Service is for him because everybody seems to polite in constantly raising their hats to one another.
A propos non Frank Spencer berets: after the plastic lining has been removed a little time out on the upper deck in salt spray and p*ssing rain generally does the trick.
A propos non Frank Spencer berets: after the plastic lining has been removed a little time out on the upper deck in salt spray and p*ssing rain generally does the trick.
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I was told the empty hand salute is also a sign that the person is unarmed and means no harm.
A salute with a sword is very elaborate but finishes with the blade pointing to the ground; effectively the saluter has bared his body and shows no threat.
en garde
A salute with a sword is very elaborate but finishes with the blade pointing to the ground; effectively the saluter has bared his body and shows no threat.
en garde
