WSOp's start to walk ?
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So what happens if they fail any part of the training?.... just bin em to IOT ...
I agree the generic system has its flaws ... in principle it's good training for NCA however, it does need a revamp !!!
If SH needs so many crewman why are they still streaming Accustic and why hasnt Shawbury shortened all courses to teach what is needed?
Mybe cos of contracts lack of staff ac and a system that cant cope with any more trainee's? discuss
Urgh; TXT SPK, and from a seasoned mentor.An efficient training system must remain robust when all around it is falling apart. For if the finger is taken out of the dam*, we all drown.
*Word changed due to PC EO indoctrination.
Lighten SARTU's load and get the aeroplanes where they count, basic training. Slightly over recruit, to accomodate the wasters who pull the whool over OASC eyes. Co-locate Puma, Merlin & Chinook OCF Flights at Benson (MSHAFT) and work together with the common goal of getting this almighty mess sorted.
Establish motivated training staff who never txt in public: CU L8r M8
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I had heard that they had, but SARTU remains entrenched within DHFS which IMHO is unecessary as part of basic training. Many WSOp (crewman) never use a winch, and those that do: rarely. It could easily be a specialised qualification like A Cat NVG and SF Ops. A small cadre of suitably qualified and practised individuals, which I believe is what 72 did when holding a SAR commitment.
72 Sqn did hold a SAR commitment and trained the crewman well , mainly using old and bold ex SAR guys...
As for getting the ac in the right place at the right place at the right time and re-visiting the generic system , way above my pay scale and outside my remit . I suggest some very good admin guru or highly paid officer in the WSOp world ( if they are WSop or are they Ops Spt ?) sorts this mess out. It wasnt the SNCO's that decided to go generic or stop commisioning.
ITC does sort out the issues , and as for issueing tissues , thats not PC ... If a Cadet wants to walk he/she can walk no problems.... its challange by choice, I think they call it !!
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Admin Guru, perhaps you should just call yourself guru, you seem to know a lot about everything............
All SH aircraft have a winch capabiity, and the ARCC can call on any military asset to help out in any SAR operation.
If they had never completed the SARTU course they could be putting themselves and the casualty in real trouble.
During my years on SH, I used the winch on many occasions, and the limited training I received from SARTU was invaluable.
What a crock.
Stick to your JSPs
Many WSOp (crewman) never use a winch, and those that do: rarely
If they had never completed the SARTU course they could be putting themselves and the casualty in real trouble.
During my years on SH, I used the winch on many occasions, and the limited training I received from SARTU was invaluable.
NAC ITC are not there to select, OASC do that. They are there to train, and given the right quality of training they should all pass. Expensive Physchologists have seen to that.
Stick to your JSPs
Shawt said
That's my memory of the 80s on Pumas. I take it you're referring to the 2 week Valley course? Not many at 33 did that though I seem to recall.
CG
During my years on SH, I used the winch on many occasions, and the limited training I received from SARTU was invaluable.
CG
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All SH aircraft have a winch capabiity, and the ARCC can call on any military asset to help out in any SAR operation.
SH & Winch Ops
72 Sqn Wessex in aid of MV Antrim Princess - Irish Sea - 1983
18 Sqn Chinook in aid of Air India 747 - Atlantic Ocean 1985
Anything else in the last 27 years? Planned 'tasks' do not count as they can use dedicated crews.
.....and for the moment at least, we still have a dedicated SAR Force who are trained specifically to do the SAR Job, and whose employment potential (in aid of the civil powers) has been diluted to a degree by the introduction and subsequent expansion of Civil Air Ambulance agencies. (Who as it happens are also not supported by HM Govt)
You cannot have it both ways fellers, you are either at breaking point and need workable solutions that may well be radical, or you are bleating lots but have elastic to spare. If you are stating that there is room for manouvre, then this thread is unique in that perception.
A reminder that this is all from my suggestion that the (desirable) SAR training is completed at an appropriate point during your first tour. You do not have to be Griffin current to be taught SAR, and in fact it would be a lot preferable to be taught on type; as having experienced Chinook downwash I can tell you that it is very differant from an MSH helicopter.
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AG
The IRT commitment in both operational theatres requires a rescue hoist/winch capability in order to cope with minefield incidents (as you well know!). Training on type is often difficult with the lack of available airframes/hours/hoists and the front line fleets often have to rely on the trg recieved at SARTU, backed up by a quick famil on type (1 or 2 serials) on pre det trg. There was a problem in the late 90s early 00s when some crewmen had not completed the SARTU course and Flts found themselves unable to constitute crews on ops.
The DHFS course has been shortened for rearcrew and I know ways at further reducing the time spent in trg are being looked at.
The IRT commitment in both operational theatres requires a rescue hoist/winch capability in order to cope with minefield incidents (as you well know!). Training on type is often difficult with the lack of available airframes/hours/hoists and the front line fleets often have to rely on the trg recieved at SARTU, backed up by a quick famil on type (1 or 2 serials) on pre det trg. There was a problem in the late 90s early 00s when some crewmen had not completed the SARTU course and Flts found themselves unable to constitute crews on ops.
The DHFS course has been shortened for rearcrew and I know ways at further reducing the time spent in trg are being looked at.
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ncaitc
IM going through halton at the moment, and im scared out of my wits of NCAITC as i've wanted this for a long time and a lot of people have told me a lot of shiite, eg 60% pass rate, 2-3 hours sleep a night, 4 roi's for diffrent things and your outted! i want to go rotary either merlin or chinook, anyone have any advice or tips for the course??
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IM going through halton at the moment, and im scared out of my wits of NCAITC as i've wanted this for a long time and a lot of people have told me a lot of shiite, eg 60% pass rate, 2-3 hours sleep a night, 4 roi's for diffrent things and your outted! i want to go rotary either merlin or chinook, anyone have any advice or tips for the course??
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Admin Guru,
Well, yes, in theory. But the fact is that the selection process doesn't work quite as well as you suggest. There is a sticky at the top of this board helping people get through the selection process, who will be selected on the "driving test" syndrome.
OASC should be used as the first part of selection. The ITC should be the next selective process. Leadership, dedication and resilience can be portrayed at OASC, but it is only when the individual is really put to the test that these qualities are examined fully. The aptitude to fly as a team member can only be vaguely assessed at OASC, so the generic aircrew phase should also be seen as another selective process. Once through that, the individual has done his bit to prove he is not a training risk and he/she deserves the best specialist instruction.
IMHO OASC is only the beginning of the selection process.
NAC ITC are not there to select, OASC do that. They are there to train, and given the right quality of training they should all pass.
OASC should be used as the first part of selection. The ITC should be the next selective process. Leadership, dedication and resilience can be portrayed at OASC, but it is only when the individual is really put to the test that these qualities are examined fully. The aptitude to fly as a team member can only be vaguely assessed at OASC, so the generic aircrew phase should also be seen as another selective process. Once through that, the individual has done his bit to prove he is not a training risk and he/she deserves the best specialist instruction.
IMHO OASC is only the beginning of the selection process.
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Stand up or shut up
Will someone please tell me, in these days of cut backs, why people who run away from the front line, get ingrowing toe nails and then have to pay for their own operations (presumably because it wasn't serious enough for the MOD to pay) should be on the PA spine? Surely this is just a waste of money! Get back fit to fly and help out or shut up!!
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Gents,
Is there any merit in recruiting WSOPs from our current officer corps who are in ground branches? Appreciate this sounds a little far fetched; however, I think we could entice flt lts in to the WSOP branch.
Standby to standby!!!
Is there any merit in recruiting WSOPs from our current officer corps who are in ground branches? Appreciate this sounds a little far fetched; however, I think we could entice flt lts in to the WSOP branch.
Standby to standby!!!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
DS, an interesting proposition that might get just one or two.
A few months back there was an ex-RN Officer planning to rejoin as a WSOp.
The flow was well established in the other direction though. The Flt Ops branch recruited WSOps and commissioned them which balanced flying pay and against officers' pay and status.
A few months back there was an ex-RN Officer planning to rejoin as a WSOp.
The flow was well established in the other direction though. The Flt Ops branch recruited WSOps and commissioned them which balanced flying pay and against officers' pay and status.
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DS,
The vast majority of officers in ground trades are there because they did not make the grade to be aircrew. To remuster to WSOp they would need to resign thier commissions, as WSOps are Non Commissioned Aircrew.
If you understand the difference between WSOp and WSO then you are almost right ... 'sounds completely far-fetched' rather than 'sounds a little far-fetched' !
The vast majority of officers in ground trades are there because they did not make the grade to be aircrew. To remuster to WSOp they would need to resign thier commissions, as WSOps are Non Commissioned Aircrew.
If you understand the difference between WSOp and WSO then you are almost right ... 'sounds completely far-fetched' rather than 'sounds a little far-fetched' !
Last edited by OHP 15M; 24th Nov 2007 at 21:47. Reason: speeling
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OHP,
Tks for pointing out the difference between WSOp/WSO - I should have known better than to drink and type. Perhaps you are correct to point out that the officers in ground branches are there because they didn't make the grade to be aircrew in the first place (there are other reasons - medical etc). That said, and out of curiosity, is it feasible to employ a junior officer, who is currently in a ground branch, in a WSOps role if he/she had attained the required IQ test for WSOp? If my understanding is correct, to be an AEOp you required a score of 75 (commissioned pilot/nav/FC and ATC required higher scores).
DS
Tks for pointing out the difference between WSOp/WSO - I should have known better than to drink and type. Perhaps you are correct to point out that the officers in ground branches are there because they didn't make the grade to be aircrew in the first place (there are other reasons - medical etc). That said, and out of curiosity, is it feasible to employ a junior officer, who is currently in a ground branch, in a WSOps role if he/she had attained the required IQ test for WSOp? If my understanding is correct, to be an AEOp you required a score of 75 (commissioned pilot/nav/FC and ATC required higher scores).
DS
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I can't see the RAF allowing any ground trade JO's to 'remuster' into a non-commissioned WSOp role, even if they passed the selection/medical/aptitude criteria (its not just done on IQ by the way). It's probably prohibited by QRs. However, it would be interesting (and probably amusing) to hear what a Stn Cdr would say to a young admin officer who submits a General Application to become a WSOp! Surely we can't have a commissioned officer joining the ranks of the great unwashed can we?
But why not if there are problems with WSOp manning/recruitment? It would be the ultimate embarrasment/failure for the RAF/MoD to have aircraft available to fly operational missions but not enough aircrew 'bums on seats'.
So if there are any ground trade JO's out there with a keen desire to better themselves by becoming Non-Commissioned Aircrew, get those Gen Apps in
.
But why not if there are problems with WSOp manning/recruitment? It would be the ultimate embarrasment/failure for the RAF/MoD to have aircraft available to fly operational missions but not enough aircrew 'bums on seats'.
So if there are any ground trade JO's out there with a keen desire to better themselves by becoming Non-Commissioned Aircrew, get those Gen Apps in
.
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You say that as if it has never happened before.
There are NCA who are ex RAF & ex Army Officers already serving.
Likewise there are many 'helicopter' people, front and rear crews changing service within the UK Armed Forces. As this is rumour control, the rumour I am hearing is that 54 x AAC (inc ex-Army) pilots have applied to the RAF.
There are NCA who are ex RAF & ex Army Officers already serving.
Likewise there are many 'helicopter' people, front and rear crews changing service within the UK Armed Forces. As this is rumour control, the rumour I am hearing is that 54 x AAC (inc ex-Army) pilots have applied to the RAF.