Troops get rough deal, says Chief of Defence
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Troops get rough deal, says Chief of Defence
In today's Daily Telegraph - shock, horror - the CDS actually speaks out in support of the troops 
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"The covenant between the Armed Forces and the British people is under growing threat from the poor conditions and lack of understanding shown to troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, the Chief of the Defence Staff warns today."
The situation must be worse than I thought.
LL
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"The covenant between the Armed Forces and the British people is under growing threat from the poor conditions and lack of understanding shown to troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, the Chief of the Defence Staff warns today."
The situation must be worse than I thought.
LL
Well, I watched his interview with Andrew Marr last Sunday on TV, and I was less than impressed by his tone.......he couldn't have towed the 'political' party line more if he had tried............
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I always though the Covenant was between soldiers and Govt. It seems the British people are getting a fair amount of blame here. Wonder why?
It was the Govt and Chiefs of Staff who decided to fight 2 wars in South Asia.
I would far rather CDS tackled this issue also reported in today's Telegraph.
But this has rather more to do with the Chiefs' decision to fight a war on two fronts.
Forces weakened by troop shortages
By Thomas Harding, Defence Correspondent
Last Updated: 6:59am GMT 14/11/2007
The ability of the Armed Forces to continue fighting at present levels in Iraq and Afghanistan is "unlikely to be met", the Ministry of Defence has admitted.
The lack of troops and the "continuing high level" of operations mean that the MoD does not expect to have enough units ready for deployment by next April.
The military is short of 6,000 troops across the Army, RAF and Royal Navy. Commanders are said to be worried about assembling an 8,000-strong brigade for Afghanistan this time next year.
In the latest quarterly performance paper, the MoD admits that 42 per cent of units reported "critical or serious weaknesses" in coming up to strength for operations.
"This reflects the pressure on the Armed Forces resulting from operating above defence planning assumptions," the report said.
An MoD spokesman said halving the 5,000-strong force in Iraq next spring, withdrawing troops from Bosnia and reducing numbers in Northern Ireland would "all help to ease the burden".
But there had been "slippage" in recruiting and retaining personnel. The Army and RAF were three per cent below manning levels and the Navy more than five per cent.
On average, the infantry only had 15 months' rest between operations rather than the recommended two years. One soldier in 10 was also exceeding 415 days away from home in a 30-month period.
Bernard Jenkin, a Tory member of the Commons defence committee, said he had been told that out of 110 Wimick armoured Land Rovers required by 16 Air Assault Brigade for training before deployment to Afghanistan next spring only six were available.
It was the Govt and Chiefs of Staff who decided to fight 2 wars in South Asia.
I would far rather CDS tackled this issue also reported in today's Telegraph.
But this has rather more to do with the Chiefs' decision to fight a war on two fronts.
Forces weakened by troop shortages
By Thomas Harding, Defence Correspondent
Last Updated: 6:59am GMT 14/11/2007
The ability of the Armed Forces to continue fighting at present levels in Iraq and Afghanistan is "unlikely to be met", the Ministry of Defence has admitted.
The lack of troops and the "continuing high level" of operations mean that the MoD does not expect to have enough units ready for deployment by next April.
The military is short of 6,000 troops across the Army, RAF and Royal Navy. Commanders are said to be worried about assembling an 8,000-strong brigade for Afghanistan this time next year.
In the latest quarterly performance paper, the MoD admits that 42 per cent of units reported "critical or serious weaknesses" in coming up to strength for operations.
"This reflects the pressure on the Armed Forces resulting from operating above defence planning assumptions," the report said.
An MoD spokesman said halving the 5,000-strong force in Iraq next spring, withdrawing troops from Bosnia and reducing numbers in Northern Ireland would "all help to ease the burden".
But there had been "slippage" in recruiting and retaining personnel. The Army and RAF were three per cent below manning levels and the Navy more than five per cent.
On average, the infantry only had 15 months' rest between operations rather than the recommended two years. One soldier in 10 was also exceeding 415 days away from home in a 30-month period.
Bernard Jenkin, a Tory member of the Commons defence committee, said he had been told that out of 110 Wimick armoured Land Rovers required by 16 Air Assault Brigade for training before deployment to Afghanistan next spring only six were available.
Last edited by nigegilb; 14th Nov 2007 at 10:42.
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Bernard Jenkin, a Tory member of the Commons defence committee, said he had been told that out of 110 Wimick armoured Land Rovers required by 16 Air Assault Brigade for training before deployment to Afghanistan next spring only six were available.
Pathetic Land Rovers.
Just go to youtube and search for IED you can watch 100's of video's of IED's ripping Hummers and tanks apart and troops dieing in the wreckage.
What is the point of these Pathetic Land Rovers
And they wonder why the Forces are sort of troops.........
Pathetic Land Rovers.
Just go to youtube and search for IED you can watch 100's of video's of IED's ripping Hummers and tanks apart and troops dieing in the wreckage.
What is the point of these Pathetic Land Rovers
And they wonder why the Forces are sort of troops.........
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Blogger - read it again:
"Bernard Jenkin, a Tory member of the Commons defence committee, said he had been told that out of 110 Wimick armoured Land Rovers required by 16 Air Assault Brigade for training before deployment to Afghanistan next spring only six were available."
It says they are not available for training, not that they won't be available in theatre. Not perfect, I agree, but having them in theatre is 1000 times more important than having them in Imber. I hope they are all ready when needed by 16AAB.
"Bernard Jenkin, a Tory member of the Commons defence committee, said he had been told that out of 110 Wimick armoured Land Rovers required by 16 Air Assault Brigade for training before deployment to Afghanistan next spring only six were available."
It says they are not available for training, not that they won't be available in theatre. Not perfect, I agree, but having them in theatre is 1000 times more important than having them in Imber. I hope they are all ready when needed by 16AAB.
To be fair, WMIKs are a pretty good bit of kit - certainly got the Taleban's attention last summer.
When it was brought in to service, it was only intended to be a defensive piece of kit - largely for the use of 16AAB - to patrol airfields and do the odd bit of short range recce. However, its role and the number of users has changed and it has become more offensive in nature, and whilst it has various bits added to it and is a good bit of kit, it is still essentially an open top vehicle with all the vulnerabilties that brings.
However, the fact there are only 6 available for pre-deployment training is a serious embarrassment to the MoD and our caring sharing govt. And this just serves to highlight the major problem at the moment - that the defence budget just isn't enough. Even believing what the govt says about year on year increases, it is only just enough to cover what we are doing on ops; there isn't enough money in the pot to cover the other things we need to do like proper pre-deployment training to ensure that we aren't learning on the job in theatre.
But the govt refuses to acknowledge that and the majority of the population can't see that or understand that fact. I sometimes feel like the Armed Forces is a bit like a put-upon and under the thumb wife, constantly having to go back to the overbearing husband to ask for a bit more pin money just to keep the house running.
When it was brought in to service, it was only intended to be a defensive piece of kit - largely for the use of 16AAB - to patrol airfields and do the odd bit of short range recce. However, its role and the number of users has changed and it has become more offensive in nature, and whilst it has various bits added to it and is a good bit of kit, it is still essentially an open top vehicle with all the vulnerabilties that brings.
However, the fact there are only 6 available for pre-deployment training is a serious embarrassment to the MoD and our caring sharing govt. And this just serves to highlight the major problem at the moment - that the defence budget just isn't enough. Even believing what the govt says about year on year increases, it is only just enough to cover what we are doing on ops; there isn't enough money in the pot to cover the other things we need to do like proper pre-deployment training to ensure that we aren't learning on the job in theatre.
But the govt refuses to acknowledge that and the majority of the population can't see that or understand that fact. I sometimes feel like the Armed Forces is a bit like a put-upon and under the thumb wife, constantly having to go back to the overbearing husband to ask for a bit more pin money just to keep the house running.
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Thanks,
However my feeling are that these so called armoured Land Rovers are still useless to an IED hitting it.
Goto http://icasualties.org/oif/Details.aspx
Apply filter 'Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack' and the other IED attacts.
Land Rover V's IED I know which I am putting my bet on.
However my feeling are that these so called armoured Land Rovers are still useless to an IED hitting it.
Goto http://icasualties.org/oif/Details.aspx
Apply filter 'Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack' and the other IED attacts.
Land Rover V's IED I know which I am putting my bet on.
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But there had been "slippage" in recruiting and retaining personnel. The Army and RAF were three per cent below manning levels and the Navy more than five per cent.
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What's needed is better IED detection. The Canadian Forces have gone from Iltis to GWagen to LAV and now Leopard because of the IED threat. While it will take a lot to cause a fatality inside a Leopard using an IED, the crews are coping with enormous heat inside them and they are more blood and guts than hearts and minds.
There are some electronic gadgetry being tried but more is needed, perhaps with some kind of ELINT UAV doing top cover on convoys to triangulate remote detonation signals so that the guys responsible can be hunted down efficiently. It doesn't solve the problem of guys in taxis and vans but at least them you can see coming most of the time.
There are some electronic gadgetry being tried but more is needed, perhaps with some kind of ELINT UAV doing top cover on convoys to triangulate remote detonation signals so that the guys responsible can be hunted down efficiently. It doesn't solve the problem of guys in taxis and vans but at least them you can see coming most of the time.
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"The covenant between the Armed Forces and the British people is under growing threat from the poor conditions and lack of understanding shown to troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, the Chief of the Defence Staff warns today."
Here in Middle England, the public appreciates fully the role and sacrifice of the troops. In fact, everyone I speak to can't praise them highly enough, even those who don't agree with the mission. I would suggest that its not the public that has an issue with respect for the troops, its politicians in general and the g'ment in particular. Perhaps if CDS says that often enough though, he'll start believing it.
Here in Middle England, the public appreciates fully the role and sacrifice of the troops. In fact, everyone I speak to can't praise them highly enough, even those who don't agree with the mission. I would suggest that its not the public that has an issue with respect for the troops, its politicians in general and the g'ment in particular. Perhaps if CDS says that often enough though, he'll start believing it.
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Saw a car yesterday with one of those natty support our troops ribbons. I think it was purchased spam side and used to good effect over here.
Where do I sign up for the "slot the useless politician" tv show. It takes a randomly pressed Lying spineless git and sets them loose in the wilds of anywhere, you get issued a nice rifle.............
Where do I sign up for the "slot the useless politician" tv show. It takes a randomly pressed Lying spineless git and sets them loose in the wilds of anywhere, you get issued a nice rifle.............
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COSTS
In the '50s, '60's we had a massive military presence from Gibralter to Hong Kong when the Treasury barely had a 'pot to p*ss in'. The U.K. is far more prosperous now yet senior Politicians and Civil Servants seem unwilling or unable to to support our much reduced but highly specialised Forces. 'Not putting the money where their mouth is' has never been truer
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WMIKs
People seem to be getting confused about WMIK LandRovers. They are ARMED not armoured. They are stripped-down, soft-skinned Rovers with a ring-mount for heavy weapons.
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Goudie,
The government spends a lot of money but not sensibly. Look at their crazy procurement policies not only in the armed forces but in every government agency be it the health service, education, local authorities etc. They're all about less bang for the buck. How much is spent on quangoes etc. Generally then all talk with very little action. They will do anything to engratiate themselves, take credit for the good and deligate responsibility for the bad. I honestly think that not many people actually listen let alone trust politicians any more.
Al R.......agree with you.
Sounds like Lord West was nobbled today by the Son of the Manse and his henchmen......
The government spends a lot of money but not sensibly. Look at their crazy procurement policies not only in the armed forces but in every government agency be it the health service, education, local authorities etc. They're all about less bang for the buck. How much is spent on quangoes etc. Generally then all talk with very little action. They will do anything to engratiate themselves, take credit for the good and deligate responsibility for the bad. I honestly think that not many people actually listen let alone trust politicians any more.
Al R.......agree with you.
Sounds like Lord West was nobbled today by the Son of the Manse and his henchmen......
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CDS says
[QUOTE]"The covenant between the Armed Forces and the British people is under growing threat from the poor conditions and lack of understanding shown to troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, the Chief of the Defence Staff warns today."
[/QUOTE]
Then FECKING DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!! YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN!! THREATEN TO RESIGN, ANYTHING!! JUST DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!! or do nothing, collect your next award and your 100% pension (which you will get anyway, whatever you do). But please get rid of the name 'Jock', as it makes me embarrased to think i have an association with you.
Why are you telling the media, before you are SORTING IT OUT!!!? As CDS all you have to do is INSIST!, .... simple really.
Bye the way If he is not reading, but his ADC or PSO is, then pass the message on, or is your Sqn Ldr, Air Cdr worth more than this issue??? He would probably thank you both, and promote you both for some REAL WORLD REEDBACK, which none of the other sychophants will give him!.
AAAAAAArgh rant over
[QUOTE]"The covenant between the Armed Forces and the British people is under growing threat from the poor conditions and lack of understanding shown to troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, the Chief of the Defence Staff warns today."
[/QUOTE]
Then FECKING DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!! YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN!! THREATEN TO RESIGN, ANYTHING!! JUST DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!! or do nothing, collect your next award and your 100% pension (which you will get anyway, whatever you do
). But please get rid of the name 'Jock', as it makes me embarrased to think i have an association with you.Why are you telling the media, before you are SORTING IT OUT!!!? As CDS all you have to do is INSIST!, .... simple really.
Bye the way If he is not reading, but his ADC or PSO is, then pass the message on, or is your Sqn Ldr, Air Cdr worth more than this issue??? He would probably thank you both, and promote you both for some REAL WORLD REEDBACK, which none of the other sychophants will give him!.
AAAAAAArgh rant over
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I always though the Covenant was between soldiers and Govt. It seems the British people are getting a fair amount of blame here.
A challenge indeed (although I vote for 15% pay rise in Apr as a good place to start....)
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We have seen Admiral West and CDS have a crack at spin in a supposed spinless Govt. The British people would have much more respect for them if they simply told the truth. A parade in Swindon? I always dodged it, but I heard the stories of being spat at. I am sure that wouldn't be the case now, but Thomas Harding is at it again in today's Telegraph. Suicide rates running at 10% of overall casualty rate. As a direct result of people like CDS deciding to fight on two fronts soldiers are not being given enough time at home with their families, time to get the horror of warfare out of their system before going out there again.
The responsibility for alarming retention and recruitment rates lies very much closer to home.
The responsibility for alarming retention and recruitment rates lies very much closer to home.