Hiroshima bomb pilot dies aged 92
Cunning Artificer
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In one issue of National Geographic they showed a picture of the map that Truman had on the wall of his office while they were planning the invasion of Japan. The numbers of men, tanks, trucks and guns etc. that went with each of the arrows were stupendous. The estimated days, weeks and months for each objective to be achieved are also pencilled in, as well as the expected casualty figures (for both sides) etc.
If any of us were in Truman's chair, looking at that map, when a boffin was ushered into the room to advise us that they had perfected the atom bomb and had some ready for immediate use, that map clearly tells us what the answer must be.
Harsh though the conclusion may be, those two bombs saved the lives of millions, protected Japanese culture and by giving us a proper abhorrence of the consequences of nuclear warfare, have kept the world free of global-scale conflict ever since.
Hiroshima Day remains special to me.
BS.
(Born on the 6th of August)
If any of us were in Truman's chair, looking at that map, when a boffin was ushered into the room to advise us that they had perfected the atom bomb and had some ready for immediate use, that map clearly tells us what the answer must be.
Harsh though the conclusion may be, those two bombs saved the lives of millions, protected Japanese culture and by giving us a proper abhorrence of the consequences of nuclear warfare, have kept the world free of global-scale conflict ever since.
Hiroshima Day remains special to me.
BS.
(Born on the 6th of August)
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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"Whaaaat??? Your using an extreme estimation, probably from a bias source to justify the murder of thousands of innocent civilians.. I'm sorry i don't want to go off topic here but that is just a completely ludacris thing to say!! "
Felix, perhaps you would like to justify your ludicrous statement above?
Japan had declared war on the Allies and struck the first blow against the USA, the 'innocent civilians' supported the Japanese war effort 100%, they were not murdered anymore than the civilians in England and Germany were murdered, they were all killed by enemy action during a time of war. You are only nineteen so plenty of time to get some more reading in, try Churchill's History of the Second World War.
Felix, perhaps you would like to justify your ludicrous statement above?
Japan had declared war on the Allies and struck the first blow against the USA, the 'innocent civilians' supported the Japanese war effort 100%, they were not murdered anymore than the civilians in England and Germany were murdered, they were all killed by enemy action during a time of war. You are only nineteen so plenty of time to get some more reading in, try Churchill's History of the Second World War.
Con Pilot has put it very neatly in it's context. I would go further, and say for the Japanese Nation as well it was in the end a good thing. More lives were lost in the B29 firebombing raids than at Hiroshima or Nagasaki and had an invasion taken place the firebombing raids would have intensified resulting in even greater civilian deaths (The RAF was preparing to join the fight).
Assuming the initial assault to be successful the the Allies would have had to fight their way yard by yard through Japan, the 'collateral damage' to civilians would have been huge. (Look at the newsreels of Okinawa ). It would have dwarfed the Nuclear numbers.
The USSR only decided to declare war on Japan at a VERY late stage . They no doubt would have invaded Japan from the North and they (or a puppet a la North Korea) would still be there now, as they are still in some of the very northern islands . In other words it would have been rather like the division of Germany.
The 'Bomb' allowed the Japanese to surrender with 'face' after all they had 'only' been beaten by 'unfair' technology ! They were also allowed to keep the Emperor
who was not tried as a war criminal . And finally it allowed them to play ,very successfully post war, the victim conveniently burying the truth . Discuss !
Assuming the initial assault to be successful the the Allies would have had to fight their way yard by yard through Japan, the 'collateral damage' to civilians would have been huge. (Look at the newsreels of Okinawa ). It would have dwarfed the Nuclear numbers.
The USSR only decided to declare war on Japan at a VERY late stage . They no doubt would have invaded Japan from the North and they (or a puppet a la North Korea) would still be there now, as they are still in some of the very northern islands . In other words it would have been rather like the division of Germany.
The 'Bomb' allowed the Japanese to surrender with 'face' after all they had 'only' been beaten by 'unfair' technology ! They were also allowed to keep the Emperor
who was not tried as a war criminal . And finally it allowed them to play ,very successfully post war, the victim conveniently burying the truth . Discuss !
Not mentioned, AFAIK, in this thread is the fate decreed for the Allied POW's in Japanese hands. Many had already been forced to dig large pits in the ground that they surmised were their own mass graves. An order for their mass execution in the event of an invasion was issued, and indeed known to the Allied High command, no doubt as a means of deterring them from proceeding. All my father's comrades would have been slaughtered, he being spared their fate merely because he had expired from the effects of over three years of Japanese hospitality some four months before the surrender. Faced with such a cruel and obdurate enemy the availability just in time of the A bombs was nothing less than a god send and, as has been said, saved lives in the millions.
RIP General Tibbets, your duty done Sir. History will be kinder than the armchair warriors. It always is.
RIP General Tibbets, your duty done Sir. History will be kinder than the armchair warriors. It always is.
I have read that the sea blockade (oil etc) was so effective that Japan's war machine had only a month or so left before it became ineffective. This together with the non-stop conventional bombing going on at the time, does ask the question if an invasion would have been necessary. Just anther view because I cannot envisage a country without oil causing hundreds of thousands of casualties to any invading force.
I can’t help feeling that the decision to drop the bomb was more a political one than a military one.
However the decision was made and the Colonel did his duty and can on no account, take any blame for the aftermath of that decision.
I can’t help feeling that the decision to drop the bomb was more a political one than a military one.
However the decision was made and the Colonel did his duty and can on no account, take any blame for the aftermath of that decision.
Notwithstanding the fact that Paul Tibbets has passed away, since those days in August 1945 no other nuclear weapons have been used in war, indeed virtually every mention of any nuclear capability since, be it civil or military, is still compared with either Hiroshima or Nagasaki i.e. 'This weapon is equivalent to 20 Hiroshimas'. Yes it was very very nasty, yes it ended WW2 a lot earlier that was predicted, yes it saved a lot more lives than it caused, but most importantly it showed the world the true horror of nuclear weaponry.
I also recommend the book 'Ruin From The Air', which tellls the story of the Manhattan Project, and if you're ever in Albuquerque pay a visit to the Atomic Museum.
Finally, lets not forget that Leonard Cheshire was an observer on the Nagasaki B-29, and this experience probably led him towards his lifetime of charitable work along with his wife Sue Ryder.
I also recommend the book 'Ruin From The Air', which tellls the story of the Manhattan Project, and if you're ever in Albuquerque pay a visit to the Atomic Museum.
Finally, lets not forget that Leonard Cheshire was an observer on the Nagasaki B-29, and this experience probably led him towards his lifetime of charitable work along with his wife Sue Ryder.
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The world was a different place.
I read contemporary accounts of Japanese prisoner handling. My father was in Nagasaki in 1945 after the war. He thought the effects were amazing and the results wonderful.
Stalks of corn embedded in tree trunks. Glass bottles crushed but not broken. Shadows of people burnt onto the ground.
I read contemporary accounts of Japanese prisoner handling. My father was in Nagasaki in 1945 after the war. He thought the effects were amazing and the results wonderful.
Stalks of corn embedded in tree trunks. Glass bottles crushed but not broken. Shadows of people burnt onto the ground.
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Estimated minimum of 1.5 million Allied casualties to be incurred in a conventional invasion of Japan.
Probably 3 times that on the other side.
Therefore Atomic Bomb(s) totally justified to end War.
Q.E.D.
Probably 3 times that on the other side.
Therefore Atomic Bomb(s) totally justified to end War.
Q.E.D.
It is largely irrelevant what the bomb prevented in further losses, or foretold in terms of the Cold War - to drop the bomb itself is not something I think any of us would wish to do ourselves, simply for the knowledge of the total destruction and death it would cause upon doing so.
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"Warsaw Pact Central Heating" was not a joke, it was a promise.
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Another book I would recommend is 'Flyboys' by James Bradley - who also wrote 'Flags of our Fathers'.
IMHO the man helped save thousands of lives and those who think otherwise are likely to have not researched the subject.
RIP Sir, a pioneer and a hero.
IMHO the man helped save thousands of lives and those who think otherwise are likely to have not researched the subject.
RIP Sir, a pioneer and a hero.
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Respectfully disagree with your assessement of 'Flyboys.' Not only was he technically inaccurate in many cases, i.e., the B-25 was called the 'Billy,(?)' but he was very much an apologist. He did a great job on "Flags" but he should have stopped there.
There was a great flap in the mid-1990s about the Smithsonian's plan to display the Enola Gay with 'context' that to many seemed an apology to Japan and how bad they had it.
A very vocal and effective campaign of veterans and the Air Force Association stopped that. Eventually, the Museum just displayed the B-29 and let the viewer make his/her own conclusions. That was at the old facility in DC and the bomber was displayed in pieces due to size.
Today, it is reassembled and rests in the new Udvar-Hazy complex at Dulles Airport.
A great book on the development of, and discussions about using, the A-bomb is "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" by Richard Rhodes. Won the Pulitzer Prize as a matter of fact. Don't know if that hurts or helps your view of the book.
He did a follow on about the H-bomb, "Dark Sun" that was just as good.
There was a great flap in the mid-1990s about the Smithsonian's plan to display the Enola Gay with 'context' that to many seemed an apology to Japan and how bad they had it.
A very vocal and effective campaign of veterans and the Air Force Association stopped that. Eventually, the Museum just displayed the B-29 and let the viewer make his/her own conclusions. That was at the old facility in DC and the bomber was displayed in pieces due to size.
Today, it is reassembled and rests in the new Udvar-Hazy complex at Dulles Airport.
A great book on the development of, and discussions about using, the A-bomb is "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" by Richard Rhodes. Won the Pulitzer Prize as a matter of fact. Don't know if that hurts or helps your view of the book.
He did a follow on about the H-bomb, "Dark Sun" that was just as good.
The mention of the fate that awaited the POWs is timely.
During the early 60's I met an ex POW and he was in no doubt that the 'Bomb' saved him and many others.
One important point that should not be overlooked is the political dimension. Imagine Harry Truman giving one of his fireside chats. ' My fellow Americans, we have a weapon that will end the war against Japan, but it is so terrible I have decided not to use it '. How long would it be before the white House switchboard melted with the weight of incoming calls or for impeachment proceedings to begin.
The blockade was an option but the Japanese military government would still have fought on ( remember they killed the General commanding the Imperial Guard and attempted to kidnap the emperor to stop the surrender broadcast ATER the second bomb) and the civilian casualties from starvation and disease would have been in their millions. The USSR would almost certainly have invaded the Japanese mainland, giving rise to claims that they alone were attempting to take the land fight to the Japanese homeland. Many more Japanese would have died AS A RESULT. IMHO President Truman did the only thing in the circumstances. Do you know of an instance in all history where a combatant has not used a superior weapon that he had developed ?.
Finally the 'peaceful' occupation of the country the retention of the Emperor and the benign 'rule' of the 'American Cesar ' set the scene for the rapid economic and political recovery of Japan in the post war era.
During the early 60's I met an ex POW and he was in no doubt that the 'Bomb' saved him and many others.
One important point that should not be overlooked is the political dimension. Imagine Harry Truman giving one of his fireside chats. ' My fellow Americans, we have a weapon that will end the war against Japan, but it is so terrible I have decided not to use it '. How long would it be before the white House switchboard melted with the weight of incoming calls or for impeachment proceedings to begin.
The blockade was an option but the Japanese military government would still have fought on ( remember they killed the General commanding the Imperial Guard and attempted to kidnap the emperor to stop the surrender broadcast ATER the second bomb) and the civilian casualties from starvation and disease would have been in their millions. The USSR would almost certainly have invaded the Japanese mainland, giving rise to claims that they alone were attempting to take the land fight to the Japanese homeland. Many more Japanese would have died AS A RESULT. IMHO President Truman did the only thing in the circumstances. Do you know of an instance in all history where a combatant has not used a superior weapon that he had developed ?.
Finally the 'peaceful' occupation of the country the retention of the Emperor and the benign 'rule' of the 'American Cesar ' set the scene for the rapid economic and political recovery of Japan in the post war era.
Whatever your views he was a brave and accomplished aviator. Have read a couple of magazine articles over the years and I agree with the earlier comment he was a gentleman.
RIP Sir
RIP Sir
Originally Posted by Hot Charlie
Tibbets had requested no funeral and no headstone, fearing it would provide his detractors with a place to protest
Would be an appropiate task for an airworthy B-17 me thinks....unless
Originally Posted by Red Snow
Paul Tibbett's grandson flies (or flew) B-2s for a living with the 509th.
