Are WSO going to change their Brevets?

[Futurnav]

Evening gents

I was just wondering if WSO's are going to keep their original 'N' brevet or change it?

thanks

FUTURNAV

[Chris Kebab]

as my mate "The Nav" explains to me if you haven't got an "N" now you won't ever get one.
E-bay excepting..

Those that have an "N" seem to have a free choice as to whether to swap 'em over.

[Pontius Navigator]

There have been several changes of brevet for different categories.

I know many Observers retained the O rather than the more modern N.

I believe commissioned Signallers were given permission to switch to AE and I know one who was a Signaller, posted to an AEO post in the V-Force and made the point that he was not trained as an AEO. He was chopped. In his case there was clearly brevet confusion at the Air Secs.

Apart from the N brevet distinguishing between navigation training and electronics and its retention as an historic badge, there is the sheer faf of changing to a new brevet. The cost, whilst minor, may also be a consideration.

The brevets that were changed were the pilots brevet when the Tudor crown came in. Likewise beret and SD hat badges.

Me? I was trained as a navigator, I have an N, and I shall keep it.

I meant to add that ROs changed to N as soon as they completed the nav course. Also Load Masters - LM used to be Air QuarterMaster - AM (?) but I don't know if many hung on to the old brevet.

[VinRouge]

What happens when Charlie takes over as the big cheese though? I am guessing they wont produce the nav brevet with the correct crown?

[Tiger_mate]

Apparently the 'Kings Crown' / 'Queens Crown' is not as clear cut as is generally believed, and is born of coincidental timing with Queenies Coronation. In short, one way or another we are eventually in for a gentleman monarchy, unless of cause the PC world demands sexual equality and Anne gets it, which in itself is quite possible, but a man in charge does not mean that the crown must change. As has already been mentioned, we have a Tudor Crown, not a Queens Crown.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by VinRouge

What happens when Charlie takes over as the big cheese though? I am guessing they wont produce the nav brevet with the correct crown?

But the Nav brevet does not have a crown!

If the crown be changed then it is WSOs who must change.

[Trev Clark]

Also Load Masters - LM used to be Air QuarterMaster - AM (?) but I don't know if many hung on to the old brevet.

The original flying badge had the letters QM on, but by my time in the late 1970's, I never saw any of the 'old sweats' wearing the QM badge. The QM badge only had a life of 8 years and many of the older guys flew for years as (temporary paid) Sergeants and no flying badge at all. I do not think it had enough history to warrant anybody not changing.

[wokkameister]

Despite the fact that old and bold Navs are eligible to continue wearing the Nav Brevet, you won't have a lot of luck from stores.
I qualified as a Loadmaster a , ahem, few years ago but as soon as this WSOp crap started, the LM brevets dissappeared and if I want a brevet for my No1's (which come with one of the naff WSOp brevets as default), then I end up apying six quid for it.

Beancounters, your end is nigh!

Rant Over

WM Out

[BluntM8]

Mate, you're well behind the drag curve. The last cse of Navs to be awarded the N brevet was about 480ish - and we're now on cse 504!

There is a gallery of all the old cse badges at Cranwell, I'll go and have a look to get the exact one sometime soon and try to post a photo of the cse badge!

Blunty

[Spam_UK]

All aircrew (with the obvious exception of pilot) now wear the Generic RAF Brevet as far as the official word is. You can however wear trade specific brevets on your mess dress. This I was told as I left Cranwell.

Also I was told that WSO's going onto some of the tanker aircraft can still wear the 'N' brevet on there flying suit etc. as there aren't any Weapons Systems on board. But the person telling me may have been mistaken.

Hope this helps.

Spam

[Pontius Navigator]

Spam, I have never heard that and I get shed loads of bumf across my desk before it is filed neatly in the round filing cabinet.

Could be wrong but it breaks the traditions. I have the N brevet. I have a couple of spares too!

[stickmonkeytamer]

474 ANC was the last course to be given N brevets, I think... The first WSO brevet was given to a Nimrod WSO with a rat tail...

SMT

[teeteringhead]

Apparently the 'Kings Crown' / 'Queens Crown' is not as clear cut as is generally believed

..... have to disagree there old mate. many years ago the Kings'/Queens' thing was briefed to me, and as evidence the crowns on GCs and VCs were shown. The GC is clearly what we call a "King's Crown" while the VC has the one we use today - and Vicky was the last previous Queen regnant.

I'll try and find some pictures to illustrate it.

'Spose we'll have to wait until Charles III (or possibly George VII) gets in......

Edited to add VC piccy - with "Queens' Crown"

[Vortex_Generator]

The "Crown" issue has been done before, here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ht=kings+crown

[Wader2]

AP 1358 Ch 7:

"Note. With effect 1 Apr 03 the range of 5 aircrew brevets for rear crew personnel were replaced by the single rear crew brevet (see below).
Those aircrew who were already qualified to wear old style individual brevets can opt to wear the new brevet or retain the old style but there will be no further provisioning of the current brevet."

So there you have it. There is no compulsion to change to a:

"The monogram ‘RAF’ in drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk, surmounted by a crown with an outspread drab silk wing 2˝" (6.35 cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth. Introduced 1 Apr 03 to replace
Navigator, Air Electronics Officer/Operator, Air Engineer and Air Loadmaster."

Now why should

Fighter Controller (FC) wear a badge to show that the are not qualified rear crew? Not all qualified "RAF/" rear crew can navigate, load, engineer, or operate so why is there a need to identify peope who can't rear crew?

[GalleyTeapot]

What about Linguists? Also not all WSO are ex N brevet, what about the AEO who wears AE bur in now called WSO too!

[Wader2]

Originally Posted by GalleyTeapot

What about Linguists?

What about linguists? I think you will find there is no mention of linguists in Ch 7 of the AP.

Originally Posted by GalleyTeapot

Also not all WSO are ex N brevet, what about the AEO who wears AE bur in now called WSO too!

Indeed, I thought that was the point I made above.

Edited to add, all 'navigators' were taught to navigate. True some were streamed fast-jet and did no astro and others were streamed ME and did little FJ work but they were all qualified as navigators and in the fullness of time many would swap from one role to another. True, fewer would swap ME to FJ although lots of Shack rear crew made that transition.

Paperwork wise, instead of being gd/n or nav they must now be WSO(N) which is twice the number of characters and 5 extra keystrokes. Very inefficient.

[UberPilot]

Surely GD(N) is now FLY(WSO)?

You can only join as WSO(N) can't you, there is nothing else WSO?

[Wader2]

Originally Posted by UberPilot

Surely GD(N) is now FLY(WSO)?

You can only join as WSO(N) can't you, there is nothing else WSO?

Accept that it is now Fly(WSO) but nothing else? There are engineers, electronic and loadmaster. All trained differently, do entirely different jobs and all wear the same brevet.

[airsound]

As a founder member of SODCAT (Society of Directional Consultants and Allied Trades), I'm quite glad I don't have to cope with the complications elucidated here.

Good luck to all - and never forget, you're not lost, only temporarily uncertain of position.

airsound