Two squadrons of Tornado GR4 ground attack aircraft will be scrapped.
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Tim M
As for Scampton, I can't see how the airfield has any long term future. Most of the domestic site is sold-off and the airfield effectively exists only for the Red Arrows. As has been rumoured many times, it seems likely that the RAFAT will eventually move to Leeming and possibly use the Scampton airspace for practice displays, if the site is retained, although you have to wonder whether there's any value in retaining any MoD interest in the site, unless it would be too expensive to return it to its former status prior to sale.
RAFAT could not operate out of Leeming and use Scampton's airspace whilst maintaining the training tempo required for a PDA late spring.
The CRC could be moved however, where to? You're looking at moving a fairly large infrastructure that is working perfectly well where it is.
The domestic site has indeed been partly sold off however, there are ample quarters for the unit's needs.
I can see Leeming closing with the remaining F3s being up at Leuchars. 100 Sqn could easily operate out of Scampton, being close to the Typhoons who they do much of their work for.
Time will tell however, here at Scampton, most people seem confident about the unit's future.
RAFAT could not operate out of Leeming and use Scampton's airspace whilst maintaining the training tempo required for a PDA late spring.
The CRC could be moved however, where to? You're looking at moving a fairly large infrastructure that is working perfectly well where it is.
The domestic site has indeed been partly sold off however, there are ample quarters for the unit's needs.
I can see Leeming closing with the remaining F3s being up at Leuchars. 100 Sqn could easily operate out of Scampton, being close to the Typhoons who they do much of their work for.
Time will tell however, here at Scampton, most people seem confident about the unit's future.
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But I was under the impression that the MoD doesn't own Odiham, the land is leased off a local farmer (at least that was the duty rumour when I worked at Odious).
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Cuts again? It's becoming one of the New Labour certainties - it might be revenge from all those nerds selling Socialist Worker that I used to abuse at University who always got the OTC and UAS kicked out of Freshers' Fair.
Leaks are becoming part of life, but there are 2 sides to this - 1) it informs us all even though it might not come to fruition, but 2) it is massively destabilising since there are 40 odd thousand in the RAF fretting about yet more instability, not to mention the threat of 6000 troops cut from the Army and 5 boats from the RN...
I know Mr Brown goes on about 'Prudence' but she doesn't sound like a very exciting girl and I presume that as he likes playing on the World Stage he would still like someone to join the military. If you look at the US they are fretting about money, but they're still spening it like water as they at least appreciate their military.
Some time ago I got to host some MPs, the Cons chap was pleasant and appreciated what I did for a living, the Lib Dem wore a bad suit and the Labourites were smug and took the line that I was too thick to do any job and couldn't be as great as them.
My meandering point is that we are committed to a war which is not some 100-hr affair and yet all we see is our ability to wage war being constantly eroded. It doesn't help when people talk about leaving here as we joined to make a difference all through training we have been ignoring the quitters. If it's not right, stop complaining and start talking about what we need so we can arm our senior officers with the information they need.
Leaks are becoming part of life, but there are 2 sides to this - 1) it informs us all even though it might not come to fruition, but 2) it is massively destabilising since there are 40 odd thousand in the RAF fretting about yet more instability, not to mention the threat of 6000 troops cut from the Army and 5 boats from the RN...
I know Mr Brown goes on about 'Prudence' but she doesn't sound like a very exciting girl and I presume that as he likes playing on the World Stage he would still like someone to join the military. If you look at the US they are fretting about money, but they're still spening it like water as they at least appreciate their military.
Some time ago I got to host some MPs, the Cons chap was pleasant and appreciated what I did for a living, the Lib Dem wore a bad suit and the Labourites were smug and took the line that I was too thick to do any job and couldn't be as great as them.
My meandering point is that we are committed to a war which is not some 100-hr affair and yet all we see is our ability to wage war being constantly eroded. It doesn't help when people talk about leaving here as we joined to make a difference all through training we have been ignoring the quitters. If it's not right, stop complaining and start talking about what we need so we can arm our senior officers with the information they need.
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Although not in the services I would like to add my two peneth....
Take all Nooo Labourites, Bean-Counters, etc etc, give them an SA80 apiece, take them to a hot and dusty place where you can die in many different ways, quickly or slowly, tell them that there will be no air support, no supplies from the SH fleet or from Brize as the runway's black....and watch them squeal. New pairs of pants Sirs.
Pity you can't just walk out and let the rseh0les.....er politicians splutter their way out of it. Gawd I hate em!
Take all Nooo Labourites, Bean-Counters, etc etc, give them an SA80 apiece, take them to a hot and dusty place where you can die in many different ways, quickly or slowly, tell them that there will be no air support, no supplies from the SH fleet or from Brize as the runway's black....and watch them squeal. New pairs of pants Sirs.
Pity you can't just walk out and let the rseh0les.....er politicians splutter their way out of it. Gawd I hate em!
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NeverAlert - regarding Scampton, I'm basing my comments on direct conversations with personnel at both Leeming and Scampton. Everyone I spoke to seemed to think that regardless of all the rumours to the contrary, there was no practical reason why RAFAT couldn't be based at Leeming and flying be done either there or overhead Scampton. So if that is the case, there's no plausible reason for hanging-on to Scampton, unless it proves to be too expensive to sell off the land. Likewise, all the conversations I've had suggest that 100 Sqn's Hawks will stay at Leeming until their OSD in six years or so. As for CRC, well of course you could move that pretty-much anywhere if necessary, but who knows, we'll have to wait and see.
I don't think there's any possibility of Odiham being retained in the long term, and most people are agreed on this. It's a big chunk of land in a perfect development area, housing just a small number of helicopters. Benson is in a slightly less sought-after location but when Lyneham is in search of a future (or more to the point, the local ecomony which will collapse without the base) then you can see the attractiveness of relocating JHC to Wiltshire and disposing of both Odiham and Benson, sooner or later.
As for poor ol' St.Mawgan, I quite agree that abandoning the base is complete folly, as I've said many times before. If you look into the whole story, you will read that the whole thing was a catalogue of mistakes and bluff-calling between the local and county councils and the MoD. St.Mawgan emerged as the most attracive base for the F-35 fleet (if we ever get them) but the local politicians kept on whining and bitching until the MoD simply lost interest. Clearly, the council folks thought that if they complained enough, the MoD would keep the airfield (minus any nuisance from jets) and effectively pay for the civil airport operations. No great surprise then that the MoD just walked away. It's a complete farce - a huge airfield (two joined together in fact), a USN facility, countless hardstandings, a massive runway, a huge servicing hangar and a strategic location. All thrown away because of petty politics. Shame that Culdrose's helicopters can't be moved over to SM to a far superior airfield, but then, Helston's politicians wouldn't be too impressed with that idea!
I don't think there's any possibility of Odiham being retained in the long term, and most people are agreed on this. It's a big chunk of land in a perfect development area, housing just a small number of helicopters. Benson is in a slightly less sought-after location but when Lyneham is in search of a future (or more to the point, the local ecomony which will collapse without the base) then you can see the attractiveness of relocating JHC to Wiltshire and disposing of both Odiham and Benson, sooner or later.
As for poor ol' St.Mawgan, I quite agree that abandoning the base is complete folly, as I've said many times before. If you look into the whole story, you will read that the whole thing was a catalogue of mistakes and bluff-calling between the local and county councils and the MoD. St.Mawgan emerged as the most attracive base for the F-35 fleet (if we ever get them) but the local politicians kept on whining and bitching until the MoD simply lost interest. Clearly, the council folks thought that if they complained enough, the MoD would keep the airfield (minus any nuisance from jets) and effectively pay for the civil airport operations. No great surprise then that the MoD just walked away. It's a complete farce - a huge airfield (two joined together in fact), a USN facility, countless hardstandings, a massive runway, a huge servicing hangar and a strategic location. All thrown away because of petty politics. Shame that Culdrose's helicopters can't be moved over to SM to a far superior airfield, but then, Helston's politicians wouldn't be too impressed with that idea!
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Fair enough, the Sparrows could move to Leeming, but what about the proximity of Leeming to Durham Tees Valley? I would have thought that having regular formation aerobatics close to the approach lanes of a civilian airport might cause a few raised eyebrows, even if there is demonstrably no risk!
For my money, I would close Leeming - 100 Sqn could operate from either Scampton or Linton - in both cases there should be sufficient spare infrastructure, and move XXV Sqn up to Leuchars and centralise the Tornado F3 there. The various lodger units etc would need re-homing, of course but there ought to be space available at other Stations for them.
Blunty
For my money, I would close Leeming - 100 Sqn could operate from either Scampton or Linton - in both cases there should be sufficient spare infrastructure, and move XXV Sqn up to Leuchars and centralise the Tornado F3 there. The various lodger units etc would need re-homing, of course but there ought to be space available at other Stations for them.
Blunty
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As an aside (if Benson was to close), I believe the new Barrack Blocks there, and the Sim were built under some 25 year PFI. I wonder how much the MoD has to pay? Whats the bet it'll be stinging?
I assume the Sim will move.
I assume the Sim will move.
What is being discussed is loosely termed “savings”. Putting aside whether or not you agree with them, the money to be saved has, until now, been a properly formulated requirement and a justifiable spend based on MoD/Government policy. If that policy changes, and they no longer have the requirement, there is a “saving” to be had.
What is NEVER discussed, but which I refer to often, is expenditure (both committed and uncommitted) against “requirements” which have NOT been properly formulated or otherwise justified. This is maladministration. In many cases, where the waste is deliberate and/or someone avoids an obligation, it is fraud. THIS is the area which should always be addressed first, before chopping hitherto useful capability.
The mandated (by PUS, on behalf of SoS and hence Government) method of preventing such avoidable waste is a process called “Requirement Scrutiny” – a term which is self explanatory.
Why, then, have the last four Ministers of State for the Armed Forces, upheld the ruling (by 2* and 4* in PE/DPA, and 2* in RAF) that applying these mandated rules, and the identification and avoidance of waste, is a disciplinary offence? They are quite open about this, have confirmed it in writing to my MP and released it under FOI.
You may not understand or have applied the process, but consider this. My batting average for avoiding waste (yet still retaining or improving capability) runs to many £Ms per year, for the last 20 years. Last year, it exceeded £120M, yet I’m just a pleb. There are 6000 like me in Abbey Wood alone which, logically, suggests there is waste I don’t know of. But, I have it in writing from the last Min(AF) that I am the ONLY one who thinks this way, therefore I am wrong.
On a lighter note, I still don’t agree with the Gp Capt who approved expenditure on the Hercules Active Dipping Sonar. I applied Requirement Scrutiny. The first, mandated, question is “Why is it needed?” It failed. He sought disciplinary action. Just a little example of the practical savings to be made by ignoring 4* and Min(AF), doing what PUS requires, all the while maintaining capability. (If the C130 has an ADS, I profusely apologise and withdraw).
What is NEVER discussed, but which I refer to often, is expenditure (both committed and uncommitted) against “requirements” which have NOT been properly formulated or otherwise justified. This is maladministration. In many cases, where the waste is deliberate and/or someone avoids an obligation, it is fraud. THIS is the area which should always be addressed first, before chopping hitherto useful capability.
The mandated (by PUS, on behalf of SoS and hence Government) method of preventing such avoidable waste is a process called “Requirement Scrutiny” – a term which is self explanatory.
Why, then, have the last four Ministers of State for the Armed Forces, upheld the ruling (by 2* and 4* in PE/DPA, and 2* in RAF) that applying these mandated rules, and the identification and avoidance of waste, is a disciplinary offence? They are quite open about this, have confirmed it in writing to my MP and released it under FOI.
You may not understand or have applied the process, but consider this. My batting average for avoiding waste (yet still retaining or improving capability) runs to many £Ms per year, for the last 20 years. Last year, it exceeded £120M, yet I’m just a pleb. There are 6000 like me in Abbey Wood alone which, logically, suggests there is waste I don’t know of. But, I have it in writing from the last Min(AF) that I am the ONLY one who thinks this way, therefore I am wrong.
On a lighter note, I still don’t agree with the Gp Capt who approved expenditure on the Hercules Active Dipping Sonar. I applied Requirement Scrutiny. The first, mandated, question is “Why is it needed?” It failed. He sought disciplinary action. Just a little example of the practical savings to be made by ignoring 4* and Min(AF), doing what PUS requires, all the while maintaining capability. (If the C130 has an ADS, I profusely apologise and withdraw).
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Tim M,
There is another fairly important reason why the Reds will NOT go to Leeming - its called the A1! It is well known that the North Yorks police have made several comments about the potentially serious risk of accidents being caused by drivers 'goose-necking' to watch them. They will, without question, veto any possible move to Leeming. The A1 is already a pretty dangerous road, and they are totally against anything which will add to that.
As Never Alert states, far better (and safer) to move 'the ton' down to Scampton.
The other problem is of course the proximity of Durham/Teeside airport, I just can't see the CAA being too happy about the move either, and they have a bit more power than the military I would suggest.
I'm not sure who you have spoken to at scampton, but as someone who works here, I can honestly assure you that not one person I know or have spoken to thinks the same as you! And as for the Reds being based at Leeming and then coming down to 313, 6 - 8 times a day to practice?? Do you even remotely think for one second that that is an option?? Not a chance!
The CRC is up and running and is fine. Quite a few quaters have been sold off, but there are still many available and currently empty.
And lastly, there is thiks small bunch of people called English Heritage, who have spent hours and hours here cataloguing every building, installation and goodness knows what else. They too will have a little say about the future of Scampton, in that it has a preservation order type thing on everything!!
So, all in all, I'm quietly confident that Scampton will stay for many years to come.
There is another fairly important reason why the Reds will NOT go to Leeming - its called the A1! It is well known that the North Yorks police have made several comments about the potentially serious risk of accidents being caused by drivers 'goose-necking' to watch them. They will, without question, veto any possible move to Leeming. The A1 is already a pretty dangerous road, and they are totally against anything which will add to that.
As Never Alert states, far better (and safer) to move 'the ton' down to Scampton.
The other problem is of course the proximity of Durham/Teeside airport, I just can't see the CAA being too happy about the move either, and they have a bit more power than the military I would suggest.
I'm not sure who you have spoken to at scampton, but as someone who works here, I can honestly assure you that not one person I know or have spoken to thinks the same as you! And as for the Reds being based at Leeming and then coming down to 313, 6 - 8 times a day to practice?? Do you even remotely think for one second that that is an option?? Not a chance!
The CRC is up and running and is fine. Quite a few quaters have been sold off, but there are still many available and currently empty.
And lastly, there is thiks small bunch of people called English Heritage, who have spent hours and hours here cataloguing every building, installation and goodness knows what else. They too will have a little say about the future of Scampton, in that it has a preservation order type thing on everything!!
So, all in all, I'm quietly confident that Scampton will stay for many years to come.
English Heritage.
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Tim,
I'm at Scampton.
The idea of the Reds bimbling around the Vale of York makes me shiver! It's busy enough already without RAFAT adding to the carnage. The A1 issue is a very good point too.
There is also the real issue of the Reds not being able to fly as many slots as they currently do should they have to fly LI-SC for every trip. It's a none starter that I know the Reds are against.
I'm at Scampton.
The idea of the Reds bimbling around the Vale of York makes me shiver! It's busy enough already without RAFAT adding to the carnage. The A1 issue is a very good point too.
There is also the real issue of the Reds not being able to fly as many slots as they currently do should they have to fly LI-SC for every trip. It's a none starter that I know the Reds are against.
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So then, quick check of understanding (if rumour is to be believed).
MoD will close Odiham and make a huge wedge (apart from it does not own it so can't make any money, in fact will cost money to return to original state), while army Units returning from Germany will take Benson (and they are welcome to it).
JHC-owned SH (Odi, Ben and CHF) will relocate to Lyn, making huge efficiencies to save MoD money (well apart from the 500 quarters they will have to build ((I am sure they will be cheap and getting land/planning will be straightforward enough)), once they have built the extra 200 quarters at Brize for everyone relocating from Lyn, easy peasey).
Fast-Jet training will move to Valley, which is a lovely part of the country that will attract servicemen to serve there (can't think of anything sarcastic about this one, just
)
Genuinely not surprised, but disappointed I am not...
MoD will close Odiham and make a huge wedge (apart from it does not own it so can't make any money, in fact will cost money to return to original state), while army Units returning from Germany will take Benson (and they are welcome to it).
JHC-owned SH (Odi, Ben and CHF) will relocate to Lyn, making huge efficiencies to save MoD money (well apart from the 500 quarters they will have to build ((I am sure they will be cheap and getting land/planning will be straightforward enough)), once they have built the extra 200 quarters at Brize for everyone relocating from Lyn, easy peasey).
Fast-Jet training will move to Valley, which is a lovely part of the country that will attract servicemen to serve there (can't think of anything sarcastic about this one, just
)Genuinely not surprised, but disappointed I am not...
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Out of interest, what is the comparative cost of maintaining bases such as Woodvale, Church Fenton, Colerne etc against that of maintaining an 'operational' station? If there is cost to be trimmed, should we not be looking at these areas first?
I think it is all fairly neatly summed up by a comment that was made to me some time ago by (if memory serves) ACAS - if the lords and ministers could, they'd have the entire air force operating from one runway in Lincolnshire!
I think it is all fairly neatly summed up by a comment that was made to me some time ago by (if memory serves) ACAS - if the lords and ministers could, they'd have the entire air force operating from one runway in Lincolnshire!
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Is it me or aren't we just rearranging the chairs on the Titanic before the inevitable happens, and the great 100 year experiment finally draws to a close? We are apparently stretched to breaking point, yet are now considering more cuts, and more closures. All of this despite war on 2 fronts, a committment to keep the Argies at bay, and the Ruskies indulging in a little sabre rattling. How far are we from critical mass before someone pulls the plug, or will we simply implode under the strain?
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Maybe the roundabout at Junction 16 of M4 should be re-named the Loader Roundabout. A place where RAF Personnel living near Lyneham but flying Hercs from Brize Norton pass through in the morning heading North, whilst personnel settled near Benson head the opposite direction to Lyneham from the M4 East. Of course, personnel living near Odiham have a free run through Wilts over the Plains in the morning, only snarl up being the pleasant market town of Devizes and the incomplete bypass of Calne. Of course, the problem for the Lyneham Brize commuters being the main gate choke point of Brize and the severely limited parking. I suggest a park and ride scheme between all four stations. Better still, maybe the RAF could resurrect a train line between the stations, so if you don't like it you can always get off at the next stop and find a sympathetic welcome.
There is no strategy here, this is musical chairs to the tune of a discredited Govt allowed free range to wreak havoc against weak military leaders.
There is no strategy here, this is musical chairs to the tune of a discredited Govt allowed free range to wreak havoc against weak military leaders.
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Green Flash - have you seen what pongos can do to runways?
Hellbound
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Nige, I kinda remember they were looking at bus-ing the Lyneham types to Brize on a daily basis until someone pointed out the SH boys and girls might need the Lynham quarters. Just couldn't make it up could you?
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SB what is happening with the Sims at Lyneham? Could we have crews travelling to Brize to fly the Herc, but travelling back to Lyneham for the Sims, and then living either in MQs at Lyneham or Brize, or remaining with the family home for the benefit of wife/kids?
I have never heard of anything so badly thought through. Didn't we sell a load of quarters off at Lyneham?
This is so bad it is actually funny. I am sure something siilar will arise out of the other planned closures. All this turbulence will simply lead people to throw the towel in. What use all the fancy aircraft then? When will the likes of Torpy, Stirrup and Loader realise their greatest asset above all is the men and women of the RAF? And just as importantly, their families....
I have never heard of anything so badly thought through. Didn't we sell a load of quarters off at Lyneham?
This is so bad it is actually funny. I am sure something siilar will arise out of the other planned closures. All this turbulence will simply lead people to throw the towel in. What use all the fancy aircraft then? When will the likes of Torpy, Stirrup and Loader realise their greatest asset above all is the men and women of the RAF? And just as importantly, their families....