How long to train a Army Pilot?

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Chickenleg - I am not dissing all AAC pilots just highlighting that although the old system gave you what you wanted, the quality was not always as it should have been. I'm not saying that the RAF or the RN produced top quality with every graduation but that overall, at the point when wings were awarded and guys were sent out to front-line, the RAF/RN output was of a better ability as guys were trained to be captain/ac comd and were not then subject to further selection/courses for this level.

Parabellum - the score required on the aptitude tests is lower for AAC.

Tom and Ralph - we knew the career profile for the AAC officers was always going to be a problem - I think a few hoped that the directorate would fight a suitable case with Glasgow for a different structure for AAC in AH but it clearly hasn't happened. The fact remains that the AAC had a good go at making AH an officers club (true blue or LE). The quality of the first AH Sqn was as a result of the high calibre of the blokes in it but they weren't first tourists or Cpl pilots.

Another problem was that many of the original LE apache guys who formed the backbone of the first Sqn have had enough and left; that coupled with slow throughput of the CTT/CTR seems to be leaving you with some serious manning issues.

I don't think any RAF rearcrew would turn their nose up at a pilot's course, AAC or not.

[Door Slider]

"I don't think any RAF rearcrew would turn their nose up at a pilot's course, AAC or not"

Of course not but at least you had a laugh during a thread that was becoming a pi55ing contest as per usual.

[serf]

Nice 1 door slider!

[wg13_dummy]

at the point when wings were awarded and guys were sent out to front-line, the RAF/RN output was of a better ability as guys were trained to be captain/ac comd and were not then subject to further selection/courses for this level.

10+ years ago, the 'front line' consisted of NI and the Balkans.

Yep, youre right, your chaps were better.

Not really a challenge being a bus driver back then was it? Not exactly tough captaincy especially when you also had a rearcrewman who, as has been discussed in other threads, does 33% of the job on the cab. TWO grownups to hold his hand.

Hardly a wonder there was no need for further courses. **** all required after wings/OCU.

[linbhunt]

How long to train a Army Pilot?

To what?

[Front Seater]

I really do not want to get involved in the current thread of my willy is bigger than your willy, but for what it is worth:

Once a true 'steady state' has been achieved then we will be able to assess and evaluate the true merits (or failings) of an Army Training system in order to establish exactly how long it takes to train an Army pilot.

I have received some polite messages requesting that I remove the content of my post for various reasons (I do have courage of my convictions, just may have caused offence - which was never my intent) - therefore I am happy to oblige. I have left the first and last paragraphs so that the general idea can be obtained

Chicken Leg, your post below is correct (to a point) at time of writng - but I think you will find that it includes many that are not QHIs - it is just that those that were on the later time bars couldn't PVR, but it is now recognised that once their time bars are up (in the near future) then many will be off (unless re-time barred on other qualifications - e.g. QHI).

No names - no pack drill and maybe I have got it completely wrong and those threatening are truly bluffing their ticket with their CO - in which case if this is steady state and the Army Pilot Training system is in steady state then the answer to this question (and to many others posed on Prune) on how long to train an Army Pilot is visible to all after a simple google search.

[Chicken Leg]

Front Seater
Some excellent points there, most of which I agree with, but I have to correct you on one point:

My point is, if you cannot retain people - as the RN and the RAF seem to do more efficiently

Absolutely wrong! Whatever most of us may think from wandering around our Sqn's, the AAC has it's full compliment of pilots. That's because most of us don't leave early; even when were 5hat on with flying pay etc (see other threads). Both the RN and RAF have FRI, we don't for that very reason.

Contrary to what has been said, I haven't seen many of the pilots from the first Op Sqn leave. Sure, loads of the first bunch of QHI's have, but that was inevitable considering most of them were already pensionable when they did the courses in the States 5-7 years ago.

[MaroonMan4]

Chicken Leg,

I am not sure that I understand or agree with your last post:

Sure, loads of the first bunch of QHI's have, but that was inevitable considering most of them were already pensionable when they did the courses in the States 5-7 years ago.

Dont you think that any trained and experienced individual not having his or her services retained by an organisation (QHI or non QHI) is a waste. With 38 being the pension point, then it is a real pity (and loss of experience) that your Corps has obviously failed to identify - whereas we are more than happy (and actively 'head hunt') our experienced aviators in order to provide a balanced Squadron and look after the young aircrew when they arrive. No one is irreplaceable agrred, but in the same breath you cannot grow a 15 year (or longer) 2500 hour pilot over night, whatever the cutting of corners, reduction in standards or rapid turning of taps take place in the training pipeline.

But your loss is our gain and I think with the advent of more SH and less teeney weeney aircraft that we will need every pilot that your system pushes out the door - looking at the RAF transfer list it could be argued that Middle Wallop is becoming another RAF training establishment

[timex]

MM,

But your loss is our gain and I think with the advent of more SH and less teeney weeney aircraft that we will need every pilot that your system pushes out the door - looking at the RAF transfer list it could be argued that Middle Wallop is becoming another RAF training establishment

Probably true, but thats because you too are bleeding aircrew hand over fist.


Shaun

[AH Veteran]

Chicken Leg,

If I may correct you on one point, also:

Contrary to what has been said, I haven't seen many of the pilots from the first Op Sqn leave.

7 of the original Sqn have left or are in the process of leaving, either runnning out their service or via PVR. Three Officers and 4 WO1s. This is over a third (7/19) of 656 Sqn, at full strength. Even more worrying is that there are only five of the original 19 currently filling front line seats, including 2 QHIs - only two remain in 656 Sqn itself! Of all the others:

• 4 have been promoted and/or posted to desk jobs
• 2 have gone on QHI course (necessary, I grant you)
• 1 posted to AMTAT (equally appropriate)

pouring ab initio pilots out of CTR will not replace the experience lost from that lot!

AHV

[wg13_dummy]

pouring ab initio pilots out of CTR will not replace the experience lost from that lot!

Email that to DAAvn.

They are having trouble with the sums at the moment.

[ralphmalph]

DAAvn are not having problems with figures.....they are just really out of touch with the Corps.

Perhaps they are too involved in day to day paper pushing/management...or

guys in the regiments are not being honest!.

I suspect that it is a combination of the two!

Either way.....

Something needs to be done!

[Chicken Leg]

Maroon,

The bunch of QHI's that have left have done so on their accord; they weren't pushed. The Corps is bad at that sort of thing, but their not that stupid!

[HEDP]

The question to be asked is how many have passed AH CTT/CTR in UK and how many are filling line pilot or AH QHI LSNs now?

What is the delta and is it due to acceptable (to the taxpayer) wastage or could more have been done to retain those that have moved on at a cost of £3 million each to train?

If the answer is that more could have been done then why was it not?

9 Regt, 42/43 trained and only 14ish left................

[Lingo Dan]

WTF is "the delta?" 21-st century Management-Speak?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Lingo,

I suspect the "delta" is a reference to its symbolism in maths and engineering, ie "change". The AAC would've been familiar with the expression ever since they did groundschool on the Gazelle - Aerospatiale and subsequently Eurocopter have always loved including delta measurements in engine/instrumentation parameters.

Mind you, it does come over in this context as a bit of "exclusive", management-styleeee jargon.

[charliegolf]

Apollo 13, Swigert: They've given us too much delta v; we gonna skip off the atmosphere right into space", or something like that.

Thud- my first thought was 'scientisty' rather than 'managementy'. Ho hum.

CG

[Lingo Dan]

It was early in the morning when I wrote that - and sorry for going a bit off-topic!

Now that you explain, I recall there's a "Delta P" switch in a hydraulic system I once knew something about.

LD

[HEDP]

I do soooo apologise........

for Delta read difference.

i.e. how many have we lost?

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Gazelle engine governing system - Delta P unit