Cluster bombs or land mines?
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psychologically dead is the past, gone and final.
wounded however is a visible and constant reminder of vulnerability
wounded however is a visible and constant reminder of vulnerability
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Anti-pers weapons are designed not to kill and, often, not even to do critical damage
Anti-personnel mines are typically quite small and light, so that they can be easily transported, placed, and are hard to detect. The downside is that they are less lethal than larger devices.
Nevertheless, even if you are correct and they are specifically designed to maim and not kill, why does that make them "evil"? Personally, I'd rather be alive and using a prosthetic leg to get around than be dead.
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Anti-personnel mines are typically quite small and light, so that they can be easily transported, placed, and are hard to detect. The downside is that they are less lethal than larger devices.
Take a look around here for some typical early AP weapons... You'll note that they are often large, cumbersome devices. You will also notice that it states for some that they are designed to maim not kill.
I will say, for Maple's benefit since I'm unsure of where his post is going, that I am all in favor of such weapons. Though I will put a rider on that. They must be deployed accurately and it should be general knowledge amongst all friendly forces as to their location... Because there is nothing worse than being maimed by your own weapons...
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Anti-personnel mines like Claymore are indeed to designed to wreak havoc in their line of fire. They are usually deplyed defensively around one's own perimeter, under direct control and can be recovered afterwards.
They can also be set on trails to deter pursuit. The downside here is that they can catch own forces if the original pursuers evade the trap.
Area or trail denial weapons OTOH are designed to sterilise an area. Mines like the Russia butterfly were never intended to kill. To kill they would need to be larger and thus more easily seen. Their small size makes it difficult to spot but limits their damage to limb amputation.
The Germans in WWII had trip mines, teller mines etc that were designed to spring up and burst at about b
k height. They were designed to incapacitate rather than kill outright.
The other factor is that bombs, shells and bullets are direct effect weapons and might be termed hot kill weapons. Fired at a legitimate target their lethality is expended when the fragments stop moving.
Booby traps, mines etc are indescriminate in that they are not hot fire weapons and effectively kill in cold blood.
Submunition dispensers are hot kill weapons when they function as indeed are bombs and shells. The problem is how to deploy area denial weapons that can be neutralised later.
If troops deploy traditional grenade tripwire traps, are these illegal?
They can also be set on trails to deter pursuit. The downside here is that they can catch own forces if the original pursuers evade the trap.
Area or trail denial weapons OTOH are designed to sterilise an area. Mines like the Russia butterfly were never intended to kill. To kill they would need to be larger and thus more easily seen. Their small size makes it difficult to spot but limits their damage to limb amputation.
The Germans in WWII had trip mines, teller mines etc that were designed to spring up and burst at about b
k height. They were designed to incapacitate rather than kill outright.
I ask again, how is getting blown up by a mine worse than getting blown up by a bomb or artillery round?
Booby traps, mines etc are indescriminate in that they are not hot fire weapons and effectively kill in cold blood.
Submunition dispensers are hot kill weapons when they function as indeed are bombs and shells. The problem is how to deploy area denial weapons that can be neutralised later.
If troops deploy traditional grenade tripwire traps, are these illegal?
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Submunition dispensers are hot kill weapons when they function as indeed are bombs and shells. The problem is how to deploy area denial weapons that can be neutralised later.
As an aside, Claymores can, equally well, be set up as booby traps... and therefore are also somewhat indiscriminate... In fact, in jungle training, there is an unmanned ambush based around Claymores that can kill the enemy and, (to some extent), clean up the trail afterwards...
Another neat little trick is placing trip flares at head height in trees alongside a trail with the top facing horizontal along the axis of the tripwire.. The chap that trips it gets a nice warm ear... Think of it as a favor...
If troops deploy traditional grenade tripwire traps, are these illegal?
If you have an enemy trench in front of you with two enemy in it and all you have is a WP... Use it...
Just my 2c...
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I will say, for Maple's benefit since I'm unsure of where his post is going, etc
Yes there is a responsibility with their use but UK forces tended to plot their minefields rather better than our Argentinean colleagues for example, also we generally tidy-up after the event. I haven't seen many of our recent target nations following "the rules" for a "clean fight", nor would they abandon mines and CB so why would we be expected to?
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Maple:
Ahh... Ok, I was a little unsure of whether you were for or against... We are in full agreement... We need to do whatever it takes to give our men and women every advantage despite political correctness and "warm and fuzzy feelings". Yes, we should minimize the subsequent damage caused by what we did but only after the goal has been achieved.
Yes, I read what the man said on ArRSe and, while clearly he was a man with a lot of experience in the subject from both sides of the issue, I believe he would call for cluster "bombs" if he was pinned down and they were the best solution...
Ahh... Ok, I was a little unsure of whether you were for or against... We are in full agreement... We need to do whatever it takes to give our men and women every advantage despite political correctness and "warm and fuzzy feelings". Yes, we should minimize the subsequent damage caused by what we did but only after the goal has been achieved.
Yes, I read what the man said on ArRSe and, while clearly he was a man with a lot of experience in the subject from both sides of the issue, I believe he would call for cluster "bombs"
if he was pinned down and they were the best solution...
Surely there is an excellent case for weapons which can be used to deny the enemy a runway without damaging it, in order that you don't completely bugger up whatever splat of land it is you're having a punch-up about.
Phil
Phil
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Runways aren't really an issue in the cluster munitions/no cluster munitions argument... Because large numbers of civilians tend not to be allowed around the kinds of runways we would wish to deny access to.
These weapons are used to either deny a choke point, (a route an enemy _must_ traverse to advance - or even to withdraw in some cases), to the enemy or, by denial of the surrounding land with these weapons, force him into a choke point so he can be destroyed. It's what remains that they did not detonate themselves in areas where innocent civilians will subsequently travel through with some regularity that causes concern.
These weapons are used to either deny a choke point, (a route an enemy _must_ traverse to advance - or even to withdraw in some cases), to the enemy or, by denial of the surrounding land with these weapons, force him into a choke point so he can be destroyed. It's what remains that they did not detonate themselves in areas where innocent civilians will subsequently travel through with some regularity that causes concern.
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We need to do whatever it takes to give our men and women every advantage despite political correctness and "warm and fuzzy feelings". Yes, we should minimize the subsequent damage caused by what we did but only after the goal has been achieved.
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Phil-R
I think you're referring to things like JP233, which had a delayed action / mine option.
Probably a good deterrent against the bad guys but initial damage was minimal - was it retired due to the Convention/s, or the fact it proved, predictably, virtually suicide to use ?
I spent a few weeks, months, probably totalling a year or so on Test Ranges; while I was there 2 ordnance experts were killed trying to clear cluster bomblets.
Agree the people our forces are facing will not flinch from using any nasty weapon they can get their hands on - all I could suggest would be a time-based de-activation, and good mapping / clearance by our forces if & when it's all over.
I think you're referring to things like JP233, which had a delayed action / mine option.
Probably a good deterrent against the bad guys but initial damage was minimal - was it retired due to the Convention/s, or the fact it proved, predictably, virtually suicide to use ?
I spent a few weeks, months, probably totalling a year or so on Test Ranges; while I was there 2 ordnance experts were killed trying to clear cluster bomblets.
Agree the people our forces are facing will not flinch from using any nasty weapon they can get their hands on - all I could suggest would be a time-based de-activation, and good mapping / clearance by our forces if & when it's all over.
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while I was there 2 ordnance experts were killed trying to clear cluster bomblets.
clearance by our forces if & when it's all over.
