Whose stupid idea was this Part 2

[GreenKnight121]

"if a section needs something in a hurry they have to use their own private vehicles to go and get it."


Been there, done that.

On midshift and needed a new sensor package for a DRS turret (A-6E) to go in a plane that was to fly after dawn... and supply had no truck available.

As the shop was nearly a mile from supply, I couldn't very well wheel a maintenance cart down, load a 150lb piece of classified electro-optical avionics in and wheel it back, so... my Jeep Cherokee became a USMC vehicle for a few minutes.

When the higher-ups got in for day-shift, they said "good job, NEVER do it again!".

[4mastacker]

"Nope, in Liz's Flying Club all POL issues are done the old fashioned way. Stacker with voucher puts down tea, jumps in vehicle and drives to relevant inflam store, drags boxes off the shelf and onto the vehicle, pops back for another cup of tea then delivers the required item some time after lunch."

THS..Only two cups of tea and in your own section????? Geez, things have changed. Didn't you time your deliveries to coincide with other section's tea-breaks?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Just when you think you have heard every fishy supply tale there is, I mean the notion that suppliers delivered was hard enough to swallow but American Forces without enough vehicles............get the **** out of here

[ericferret]

Did a similar thing myself the other week, grabbed a tin of engine oil in a rush and topped up the tank.

Should have been Mobil Jet 2, I used Mobil 254.

Cans are identical in size and colouring.

Main reason for the error was rushing combined with the fact that I didn't know we had 254 on stock and in true human fashion I assumed. I didn't notice until I went to dispose of the the can.

In the civil world lots of fluids are supplied in standard us quart/litre cans.
The idea being they are sealed and can't be contaminated and waste is reduced.

Manufacturers have their own colours so identification is normally easier (normally)!!

However on a dark night with a crappy line van and cans rolling everywhere it has not been unheard of for a can of skydrol to go into an engine oil tank. That can really spoil your day as it attacks seals not designed for it.

I remember about 30 years ago going to top up a Gazelle engine from a correctly labelled can 0X ?? out of the oil store. and noticing that the can was not sealed I tipped a little on my hand to check and lo it was bright red OM15. Obviously someone had used an empty engine oil can to drain a hydraulic system and then had not disposed of it.

No amount of label reading will save you from that.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

4mastacker. Perhaps the Air Force should store its packaged POL in the Naval Bases. Alternatively, the Air Force could install CRISP and RIDELS for automated accounting and picking. Very last Century; but so simple.

[Wader2]

Golf Bravo Zulu,

I suggest you read the original May 06 thread. It was the Navy that done it. As benfits the senior service the RAF is merely following tradition

[Mr-AEO]

I believe that the simplest solution to the OM-15 and OX-38 (et al) mix-up is to burn all the bloody OM-15 in the universe.

It's horrible stuff and clucking dangerous.

Bring in some nice self-contained Electro-Actuators instead; we may save a few lives in the process.

[cornish-stormrider]

The best reason for having two different cans/risbridgers is so that at stupid o' Fuc)(ing clock after not being able to sleep on nightshift you don't fill the steely warbird with the wrong fluid and it tentpegs into a mosque/hospital/school/town centre on the way to target with a major system failure.............

40p a can!!!!! only in this day and age.........

all it will take is for one accident and we can write off all of those 40p savings and much much more.

Will the class one ****** who thought up this brainwave please stand up and be counted. Bet he won't have to put his pension/liberty on the line that no-one ever makes a mistake with the can........

[r supwoods]

Lets look at it calmly.

Putting Hyd oil in an engine will not cause immediate damage and indeed much will be burnt away and diluted back to original strength on the next oil fill. Should an engine suffer ill effects, it will be due to repeated contamination and only then will bearing wear deteriorate gradually and noticeably. Sudden failure is unlikely. Most engines will operate on minimum oil quantities / qualities for some time.

Overheating a OM15 / OX26 mix may produce cockpit fumes which over a long term may cause health problems, in the short term, the smell would be apparent enough for oxygen to be called for.

The RAF has a "No Blame Culture" and should this be degraded many of the contamination confessions before flight would have been hushed up and no one would ever know.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Its quite easy to misread the can labels in the oil store when you've only got a cigarette lighter.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Wader2. Ah, but I did and, indeed, MightyGem did report from RN origin; but that was entirely due to an easy misread of the new tin shape. What GreenKnight reported was an issue discrepancy where store "A" was demanded but store "B" was picked. The Helpful Stacker explained how the Air Force mandraulic storekeeping process helps to achieve such an error.

In all fairness, I must admit that Naval Air Station stock held on OASIS could probably duplicate a similar discrepancy.

[Wader2]

Originally Posted by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU

The Helpful Stacker explained how the Air Force mandraulic storekeeping process helps to achieve such an error.

My expert advisor tells me that Can A is kept in one store at one loaction and Can B in another.

When issued forward to a ready use POL locker the two cans often finish up in the same store. The suppliers therefore are guiltless

[The Helpful Stacker]

The Helpful Stacker explained how the Air Force mandraulic storekeeping process helps to achieve such an error.

Actually experience has shown that the introduction of IT stock holding has made it far easier to make errors that have greater consequences down the line than with a manual system. POETS day corner cutting to get work cleared for an easy stack is much easier to on USASII than its was on the old F1640M's as there are far fewer checks in place on the 'improved' system. Of course doing paperwork manually is time consuming which is the flip side to accuracy.

My expert adviser tells me that Can A is kept in one store at one loaction and Can B in another.

Not necessarily. OM15/OX26 can be stored in the same inflams store as they have the same primary and subsidiary hazards. Indeed at Odious they were stored opposite each other in the same bulk store. Luckily they have large labels on the front that are easy for any fool to read, oh err.....

[cornish-stormrider]

OX 26, big and square, not red fluid

OM 15 round and smaller, red fluid. Tastes like strawberries

[Two's in]

Putting Hyd oil in an engine will not cause immediate damage and indeed much will be burnt away and diluted back to original strength on the next oil fill.

But putting OX-26 into a hydraulic system will definitely get you to the scene of the accident first, especially with rotary. Still waiting to see a good alternative to opening your eyes and engaging your highly trained brain...

[splitbrain]

Originally Posted by Two's In

Still waiting to see a good alternative to opening your eyes and engaging your highly trained brain...

Its not a question of finding an alternative to proper training and a professional attitude towards ones work, its a question of recognising that there are times when people do things they didn't intend to. Ever been to the supermarket and picked up a bottle of diet cola when you meant to get full fat? Or one brand of beans when you meant to get another? Well, perhaps you haven't, but many will admit that they have done this because the packaging looks similar. And why aren't the flight deck/cockpit switches for the flaps/landing gear and avionics all mixed up with, and the same shape as the weapons switches?
No amount of training or telling people to open their eyes will stop people from making simple, yet potentially catastrophic errors if the component parts of a screw-up are all in place. Similar shaped tins of different oils, and a harrased tradesman are two such component parts, remove one and you stop the screw-up don't you?
Make sure all tradesmen are working under conditions that ensure they always engage their brains in every situation, not least very familiar ones...yeah right, good luck
Change the shape of the cans of oil so that tradesmen are given a chance to spot the fact that they may be about to put the wrong oil in the wrong system....sounds good to me.

Or, to put it another way..
In an episode of the Simpsons Marge becomes addicted to gambling in the Monty Burns casino. When Homer finally gets her to realise she has a problem she tells him she needs professional help. Homers solution is a lot simpler...
"Oh no thats too expensive, just don't do it again".

Ultimately, when you have a couple of jets 'hangarised' with contaminated systems because of wrong oil poisoning, what the tradesman should have done becomes irrelevant; what they did do was put the wrong oil in.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by The Helpful Stacker

Actually experience has shown that the introduction of IT stock holding has made it far easier to make errors that have greater consequences down the line than with a manual system. ...

Do you mean as in chocolate brown paint as opposed to sage green?

A La Nimrod?

[petop]

Im putting my head above the wall now but i can answer the question to why the oil container was changed etc by asking the person that buys it!
Trouble is, and until i get back into work tomorrow ill confirm, its probably a civvy who never has been near an aircraft.

[Mandator]

So the wheel has turned full circle! In the late 60s/early 70s we used to get OM15 and OX26 in cans of the same shape and colour (remember the old oblong-style gallon cans?) although if I remember rightly the shade of green might have been slightly different slightly lighter on the OX26 cans. Progress?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Surely this is a problem of training rather than one of different shaped tins? Nearly every POL product that comes in 5 litre quantities comes in the same 5 litre container yet the only regular mix up you hear of is that of OM15/OX26.

When I worked in POL I would never assume that just because a tanker that had arrived to deliver fuel had Avtur markings on it and all the paperwork agreed that the product inside was Avtur that it was. I and my colleagues QA'd every single fuel load that arrived because not only did we have professionalism in the task in hand, no matter how monotonous it may be, but we fully understood the logistical and legal repercussions if we messed up.

BTW, the reason for the change of the containers is cost but the cost cutting is ultimately down to the container manufacturers themselves. The containers are a standard UN approved type and although the old round ones are still acceptable under UN regulations the civil sector won't use them as they take up more room during shipping (and hence cost more to move) than the rectangular ones. As a result of these market forces it would be incredibly cost prohibitive (more than the 40p per can quoted earlier I believe) to produce them just for military usage.

Perhaps a reusable round shaped shroud to fit over in-use cans could be fabricated locally in-lieu of training folk to read the label. You can use that for a GEMS suggestion for free if you like.