More Iraq Speculation
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More Iraq Speculation
In today's Sunday Times http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2368539.ece
Yet more speculation on a possible withdrawal from Iraq. Is it just me, or is the rush to do so, and thus call a snap election, unseemly? Whilst retired Generals are criticising US policy, haven't we created a big mess that has cost a lot of lives and now we're rushing to leave. The big danger is that we will be forever blamed for making a mess of Southern Iraq, whilst GB just claims it was nothing to do with him and it was all TB.
Yet more speculation on a possible withdrawal from Iraq. Is it just me, or is the rush to do so, and thus call a snap election, unseemly? Whilst retired Generals are criticising US policy, haven't we created a big mess that has cost a lot of lives and now we're rushing to leave. The big danger is that we will be forever blamed for making a mess of Southern Iraq, whilst GB just claims it was nothing to do with him and it was all TB.
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Lets pull out and leave them to it. That filthy hole isnt worth a drop of British blood. Perhaps when we pull out they will regret mortaring IED'ing and rocketing us into oblivion whilst their neighbour wants to slaughter them for religious grounds.
Lets face it, we can get most of the oil from Kuwait, so why bother staying in the country?
Lets face it, we can get most of the oil from Kuwait, so why bother staying in the country?
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That is a bit mean, Vin, but I must admit that this is getting very messy.
The US army isn't doing a very good job, and the number of british victims is getting higher and higher... (73 deaths is it?)
But we can't just leave Iraq and forget about the whole issue, and if we did so, Britain wouldn't be in a very popular position...
As I said; this is getting very messy.
The US army isn't doing a very good job, and the number of british victims is getting higher and higher... (73 deaths is it?)
But we can't just leave Iraq and forget about the whole issue, and if we did so, Britain wouldn't be in a very popular position...
As I said; this is getting very messy.
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We may have pulled out, but we risk leaving a vacuum that will rapidly be filled by the people we have been seeking to deny for the past few years. It's all too convenient that the retired generals are criticising US policy now when GB is remaining stoically quiet about his plans to withdraw. He may not like the US, but they have been pretty helpful to us. If we had a coherent policy and enough troops in the first place, perhaps we wouldn't be in this position now. I just don't want to see us having to fight our way back in there in a few years' time. If GB wants to win an election, perhaps he should look at something other than a quick win for some popularity.
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The US army isn't doing a very good job,
Can you state any specific details, instances, or ways in which the AUSA's performance fails to please you?
Specifics, please, not just editorializing.
Can you state any specific details, instances, or ways in which the AUSA's performance fails to please you?
Specifics, please, not just editorializing.
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ME, don't bother. Thanks to some top level slagging, from Generals, on both sides, who should know better, we are in danger of opening up a rift with our closest ally.
This is nonsensical. Our enemies around the world must be rubbing their hands.
Fact, due to political failure we no longer have enough troops, equipment, aircraft, helos, to fight on 2 fronts. Call it mission accomplished, whatever, UK Armed Forces have been driven into the sand by underfunding and reductions in manpower and are achieving little in Iraq. Time to leave.
There is no point in picking a fight with our closest ally. We do not want to be driven into the arms of our European "allies."
This is nonsensical. Our enemies around the world must be rubbing their hands.
Fact, due to political failure we no longer have enough troops, equipment, aircraft, helos, to fight on 2 fronts. Call it mission accomplished, whatever, UK Armed Forces have been driven into the sand by underfunding and reductions in manpower and are achieving little in Iraq. Time to leave.
There is no point in picking a fight with our closest ally. We do not want to be driven into the arms of our European "allies."
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Nige
It just seems that at a time when we actually need to all sit down and ask how we can fix things so we can disengage without having to go wading back in, we're all trying to justify GB's unspoken aspiration to extract. He may not like the Armed Forces, but he should be damned proud that so many young me are still ready to answer the call. The war may or may not have been right, but those in uniform have unstintingly answered the call and done the best they can with the limited resources they have been given. If we withdraw now and leave the mess behind - what have we achieved? It is all just so our Government can distance themselves from the mess they created. We have set things up, but until we can staunch the flow of the Shia malitias and the support they receive from over the border, can we really claim 'mission accomplished'?
It just seems that at a time when we actually need to all sit down and ask how we can fix things so we can disengage without having to go wading back in, we're all trying to justify GB's unspoken aspiration to extract. He may not like the Armed Forces, but he should be damned proud that so many young me are still ready to answer the call. The war may or may not have been right, but those in uniform have unstintingly answered the call and done the best they can with the limited resources they have been given. If we withdraw now and leave the mess behind - what have we achieved? It is all just so our Government can distance themselves from the mess they created. We have set things up, but until we can staunch the flow of the Shia malitias and the support they receive from over the border, can we really claim 'mission accomplished'?
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CS, I couldn't agree more. Pulling out of Basra Palace is understandable. But notice, the pull out was achieved at night, under curfew after doing a deal with Sadr and agreeing to hand back some of his murderers.
If we pull out of Basra Air, with the surge in full flow, I doubt the Americans will ever get involved in anything other than an International situation that directly affects them. We will be leaving them in the mire if we pull out by Christmas. Rightly or wrongly we are in it together. Gordon Brown will gain in the short term but we will all lose in the long term if we open up a rift with the US.
If anyone thinks we don't need the Americans, then think back to the Balkans, then think back to the Falklands War. No direct interest to them but they answered the call.
I am ashamed by what successive Govts have done to our Armed Forces. For some reason our Top Brass think Afg is more winnable. Well, Canada has served notice, so have the Dutch. We will probably be in a similar position in Afg in a couple of years time. Hanging in there in the South without achieving very much in the way of development.
As for those who have died, if we leave the Iraqis to it, it will all have been for nothing. We should not pull-out until they are ready.
If we pull out of Basra Air, with the surge in full flow, I doubt the Americans will ever get involved in anything other than an International situation that directly affects them. We will be leaving them in the mire if we pull out by Christmas. Rightly or wrongly we are in it together. Gordon Brown will gain in the short term but we will all lose in the long term if we open up a rift with the US.
If anyone thinks we don't need the Americans, then think back to the Balkans, then think back to the Falklands War. No direct interest to them but they answered the call.
I am ashamed by what successive Govts have done to our Armed Forces. For some reason our Top Brass think Afg is more winnable. Well, Canada has served notice, so have the Dutch. We will probably be in a similar position in Afg in a couple of years time. Hanging in there in the South without achieving very much in the way of development.
As for those who have died, if we leave the Iraqis to it, it will all have been for nothing. We should not pull-out until they are ready.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Specifics, please, not just editorializing.
Withdrawal from Basra by the British is a step in the right direction of letting this unholy mess begin to resolve itself. At least now they will concentrate more on killing each other, instead of the poor sorry bastards who are there simply because George and Tony want to play Willy Waving games.
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No, I'm not against the USofA at all; they may be overweight, they may talk in very annoying accents (learnt from work experience), and they may be constantly criticized by the world basically because of the amount of power (both military and propaganda power) they have, but they have certainly helped us out in many occasions, and we will certainly help them out in many future occasions. When the WWIII goes "pop", we will certainly be on the US's side.
The US have gotten into a sticky position, and the UK have followed them right into the pie (...or peanut butter, or whatever). But we also have to think about Iraq...
In my opinion, we should retreat only when the Iraq forces think they can handle it by themselves.
The US have gotten into a sticky position, and the UK have followed them right into the pie (...or peanut butter, or whatever). But we also have to think about Iraq...
In my opinion, we should retreat only when the Iraq forces think they can handle it by themselves.
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The tribal couldron in Iraq could only ever be effectively controlled by a brutal, ruthless leader like Saddam. The various factions in Iraq have no intention whatsoever of co-existing within their country's own boundaries or beyond.
We've removed the gatekeeper and lifted the lid off.
Head for the hills...
We've removed the gatekeeper and lifted the lid off.
Head for the hills...
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Let us remember that when they Spams decided to run away bravely from Kurdistan/Northern Iraq last time around (post Op Safe-Haven) they very nearly left our guys deeply in the brown stuff! RM Commandos from 42 if my befuddled by time memory serves....
Have they ever joined us and created a democratic government in their wake - yes I know it's all been said before but one cannot forget the inglorious withdrawals from Saigon and Mogadishu for instance.
P.S. Grenada anyone - ANYONE?
P.P.S Oh and Op "Just Cause" comes to mind too.
Have they ever joined us and created a democratic government in their wake - yes I know it's all been said before but one cannot forget the inglorious withdrawals from Saigon and Mogadishu for instance.
P.S. Grenada anyone - ANYONE?
P.P.S Oh and Op "Just Cause" comes to mind too.
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withdrawals from Saigon and Mogadishu for instance.
P.S. Grenada anyone - ANYONE?
P.P.S Oh and Op "Just Cause" comes to mind too.
P.S. Grenada anyone - ANYONE?
P.P.S Oh and Op "Just Cause" comes to mind too.
Saigon, you're right. We lost.
Mogadishu? We did get our ass handed to us, but I don't recall setting up a democratic government as the mission. Thought we tried to protect the folks trying to hand out food.
Grenada? Lost me there. Are you saying we lost? Umm, we got our civilians and I believe restored the elected governor, but I'll wait to be corrected on the outcome. But a loss?
"Just Cause?" Or as we termed it, "Just Because," how'd we loss that one? Noriega is sitting in prison, Panama has their own elected government. How do you score this one as a loss?
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Also here's a little Wikipedia quote ...
The U.S. government actually acknowledged that Grenada had offered it "an opportunity to evacuate American citizens," and that "U.S. students in Grenada were, for the most part, unwilling to leave or be evacuated."
From here
The U.S. government actually acknowledged that Grenada had offered it "an opportunity to evacuate American citizens," and that "U.S. students in Grenada were, for the most part, unwilling to leave or be evacuated."
From here
Last edited by TOPBUNKER; 4th Sep 2007 at 01:30.
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One made the leap from "inglorious withdrawal from Saigon and Mogadishu" to your following lines. Seemed a logical jump to make from your post.
As for "Imperial," endangered American citizens in Grenada and murdered ones in Panama was enough of a reason.
As for "Imperial," endangered American citizens in Grenada and murdered ones in Panama was enough of a reason.
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Oh, and my actual point was ...
"Let us remember that when they Spams decided to run away bravely from Kurdistan/Northern Iraq last time around (post Op Safe-Haven) they very nearly left our guys deeply in the brown stuff! RM Commandos from 42 if my befuddled by time memory serves...."
Of which you made no comment!
"Let us remember that when they Spams decided to run away bravely from Kurdistan/Northern Iraq last time around (post Op Safe-Haven) they very nearly left our guys deeply in the brown stuff! RM Commandos from 42 if my befuddled by time memory serves...."
Of which you made no comment!
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Yep, that Monroe Doctrine's a bear to swallow, ain't it?! 
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Re northern Iraq/Kurdistan; I can't comment as I am unfamiliar with the near split to which you refer. I am familiar with Provide Comfort, not the ending to which you refer. Please enlighten.
And I do note you wrote "almost." So it didn't happen then, did it?
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Re northern Iraq/Kurdistan; I can't comment as I am unfamiliar with the near split to which you refer. I am familiar with Provide Comfort, not the ending to which you refer. Please enlighten.
And I do note you wrote "almost." So it didn't happen then, did it?