VC10 & Tristar
Just another erk
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Bigbluecar, loved the official line ( thread 3 ) but could only read a short way through them, had to stop, check my shoes and make sure I wasnot treading in it
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WOT ABOUT A C-130/A400M/C-17 TANKER OR EVEN CONVERT THE SENTRY
With the way budgets are currently going and the Dear Leaders track record of timely service support (cuts) the only frames likely to be converted are the flying club warriers....
A couple of jerrycans 'arry blacked' to the wings and a trailing hose bodged up from the mess garden sprinkler system.....
Got the tape, can lay me grips on the cans, the hose? a 2am raid on the mess garden shed should sort that one out........
BEag's you up for doing the trial flights? .......
come on.... it's a plan ain't it..... about as good as the one already going....
Just another erk
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Sorry Bluecar can not comment on that,
Cannot say much more, but look where I am working. Been off sick for a few weeks, hope to be back next week, if anybody from there is reading this thread they will know who I am. Worked on the GAF as well, that would probrally do as a good stop gap for the RAF. Also did first flight tests on the RAF Tristar, but only as an instrumentation engineer.
Cannot say much more, but look where I am working. Been off sick for a few weeks, hope to be back next week, if anybody from there is reading this thread they will know who I am. Worked on the GAF as well, that would probrally do as a good stop gap for the RAF. Also did first flight tests on the RAF Tristar, but only as an instrumentation engineer.
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Q. Will all the aircraft be available to RAF at all times?
A. We expect the aircraft to be available when we need them – when they are not needed by RAF, they will be able to earn commercial, Third Party revenue.
A. We expect the aircraft to be available when we need them – when they are not needed by RAF, they will be able to earn commercial, Third Party revenue.
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The last Tristars to go out of service will be the C2s and they're a couple of years younger than the Ks and KCs.
Interestingly, with regards to..
What operator in their right mind is going to lease an aircraft that the RAF can call back at a moments notice? Imagine flying a bunch of passengers out to Spain, only for the aircraft to be requisitioned while it's out there. Also, what many countries aren't too happy about having military aircraft land at their major airports, so where would that leave them?
Interestingly, with regards to..
Q. Will all the aircraft be available to RAF at all times?
A. We expect the aircraft to be available when we need them – when they are not needed by RAF, they will be able to earn commercial, Third Party revenue.
A. We expect the aircraft to be available when we need them – when they are not needed by RAF, they will be able to earn commercial, Third Party revenue.
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What operator in their right mind is going to lease an aircraft that the RAF can call back at a moments notice? Imagine flying a bunch of passengers out to Spain, only for the aircraft to be requisitioned while it's out there. Also, what many countries aren't too happy about having military aircraft land at their major airports, so where would that leave them?
I can't get my head around this part of the proposition either; unless they allocate say half the fleet for RAF peace time tanking/tasking and the rest on Maintenance/ or available for charter etc. And then only use them all if pressed for wartime role.
With the politically unstable world we have today and the dawning of a new cold war, I can't see any being available for lease anyway. I still think it would be a lot cheaper in the long term to just purchase them outright and have done with it. PFI - what a poor idea!
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Like the C17 you mean.
Lease not buy so less money up front, only 10000 miles per year and a $1 per mile over that and option to buy at the end of the contract.
Drive 100000 miles in first year so only option is to buy to avoid the penalty clauses.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It should be a fairly easy 'what if' to look at present numbers and tasking and see how future FSTA numbers would fit. Would only half be used? Would all be used and overflown too?
Lease not buy so less money up front, only 10000 miles per year and a $1 per mile over that and option to buy at the end of the contract.
Drive 100000 miles in first year so only option is to buy to avoid the penalty clauses.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It should be a fairly easy 'what if' to look at present numbers and tasking and see how future FSTA numbers would fit. Would only half be used? Would all be used and overflown too?
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What is scary, and obvious from the 'Official Line link' on thread 3 is that whoever is running this, hasn't got a clue. Either that, or it hasn't been thought out.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Fa...AndAnswers.htm
Q. Why not buy tankers outright? Can the MoD afford to buy tankers outright?
A. FSTA is scoped as a service rather than an asset procurement. Achieving Value for Money is the key driver.
My god. When I think of refuelling and service in the same thought, I think of a little chap juicing the old Triumph while I sat in it out of the rain. When I think of refuelling and being able to generate power and capability overseas in the Defence of the Realm, I tend to think of it as an asset. Nice to see though, that we're not simply doing it on the cheap, but rather, achieving value for money.
Might I offer an alternative answer?
Q. Why not buy tankers outright? Can the MoD afford to buy tankers outright?
A. No. Because we have no money, simple. Brown has spent it on Polish shipyards, the 2012 Games and redecorating the Married Quarters that he sold off to a Jap bank back in 1996.
That any better?
And what on earth..?
Q When will you make a final decision about PFI? / When will you sign the contract?
A. FSTA is a very complex project, including Aircraft, Training, Infrastructure & Maintenance but negotiations with AirTanker - aimed at securing detailed agreement on a PFI service contract – are well advanced. Air to Air Refuelling is a key military capability and we must make right decision for our Armed Forces.
Q. What happens if final agreement with AirTanker cannot be achieved and PFI is abandoned – are you looking at / continuing to look at fallback options?
A. We are working hard with AirTanker to conclude an acceptable PFI contract. However, Air Refuelling is a key military capability and we must make the right decision for our Armed Forces. It is only prudent that the MoD keep all of its options under continuous review.
Q. What is the likely Fallback option for FSTA – what aircraft does it rely on?
A. It would be inappropriate to comment further at this stage. We are working hard with AirTanker to conclude an acceptable PFI contract.
Sorry, but it looks like its being done on the hoof. The real answers?
Q When will you make a final decision about PFI? / When will you sign the contract?
A. When we know what we can afford.
Q. What happens if final agreement with AirTanker cannot be achieved and PFI is abandoned – are you looking at / continuing to look at fallback options?
A. As we have no one else who'll come near us with a bargepole, we are working hard with AirTanker to conclude an acceptable PFI contract. However, Air Refuelling is a key military capability and we must make the right decision for our Armed Forces. It is only prudent that the MoD keep all of its options under continuous review, which means, basically, that we're making it up as we go along and will try and get the best deal for the £13.74 thats available.
Q. What is the likely Fallback option for FSTA – what aircraft does it rely on?
A. Christ, we've been rumbled!! I know.. we'll tell 'em that it would be inappropriate to comment further at this stage and that we are working hard with AirTanker to conclude an acceptable PFI contract.
Sorry, but what the hell is going on nowadays????? Perhaps its always been like this though. I remember the Tristars and VC10s landing on the pan at Abingdon and the tale of a few Frenchies who had to fly them back low level, gear down and with a short range comms to an escort because they were in such an appalling condition when they were bought. This is awful, it really is. I watched the Nimrod Panorama prog last night on YouTube and yes, I know we've always been hard up, and I know Panorama isn't a patch on what it used to be, but what the heck is going on???
We are having our interests dictated to by amateurs. Civil servants who haven'y got a clue how to haggle and negotiate, or who don't have the means to do it properly, or servicemen who are completely out of their depth. Really, something has got to be done, this is beyond a joke.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Fa...AndAnswers.htm
Q. Why not buy tankers outright? Can the MoD afford to buy tankers outright?
A. FSTA is scoped as a service rather than an asset procurement. Achieving Value for Money is the key driver.
My god. When I think of refuelling and service in the same thought, I think of a little chap juicing the old Triumph while I sat in it out of the rain. When I think of refuelling and being able to generate power and capability overseas in the Defence of the Realm, I tend to think of it as an asset. Nice to see though, that we're not simply doing it on the cheap, but rather, achieving value for money.
Might I offer an alternative answer?
Q. Why not buy tankers outright? Can the MoD afford to buy tankers outright?
A. No. Because we have no money, simple. Brown has spent it on Polish shipyards, the 2012 Games and redecorating the Married Quarters that he sold off to a Jap bank back in 1996.
That any better?
And what on earth..?
Q When will you make a final decision about PFI? / When will you sign the contract?
A. FSTA is a very complex project, including Aircraft, Training, Infrastructure & Maintenance but negotiations with AirTanker - aimed at securing detailed agreement on a PFI service contract – are well advanced. Air to Air Refuelling is a key military capability and we must make right decision for our Armed Forces.
Q. What happens if final agreement with AirTanker cannot be achieved and PFI is abandoned – are you looking at / continuing to look at fallback options?
A. We are working hard with AirTanker to conclude an acceptable PFI contract. However, Air Refuelling is a key military capability and we must make the right decision for our Armed Forces. It is only prudent that the MoD keep all of its options under continuous review.
Q. What is the likely Fallback option for FSTA – what aircraft does it rely on?
A. It would be inappropriate to comment further at this stage. We are working hard with AirTanker to conclude an acceptable PFI contract.
Sorry, but it looks like its being done on the hoof. The real answers?
Q When will you make a final decision about PFI? / When will you sign the contract?
A. When we know what we can afford.
Q. What happens if final agreement with AirTanker cannot be achieved and PFI is abandoned – are you looking at / continuing to look at fallback options?
A. As we have no one else who'll come near us with a bargepole, we are working hard with AirTanker to conclude an acceptable PFI contract. However, Air Refuelling is a key military capability and we must make the right decision for our Armed Forces. It is only prudent that the MoD keep all of its options under continuous review, which means, basically, that we're making it up as we go along and will try and get the best deal for the £13.74 thats available.
Q. What is the likely Fallback option for FSTA – what aircraft does it rely on?
A. Christ, we've been rumbled!! I know.. we'll tell 'em that it would be inappropriate to comment further at this stage and that we are working hard with AirTanker to conclude an acceptable PFI contract.
Sorry, but what the hell is going on nowadays????? Perhaps its always been like this though. I remember the Tristars and VC10s landing on the pan at Abingdon and the tale of a few Frenchies who had to fly them back low level, gear down and with a short range comms to an escort because they were in such an appalling condition when they were bought. This is awful, it really is. I watched the Nimrod Panorama prog last night on YouTube and yes, I know we've always been hard up, and I know Panorama isn't a patch on what it used to be, but what the heck is going on???
We are having our interests dictated to by amateurs. Civil servants who haven'y got a clue how to haggle and negotiate, or who don't have the means to do it properly, or servicemen who are completely out of their depth. Really, something has got to be done, this is beyond a joke.
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The process was a long one, but it was well into Browns tenure that the decision was made, and approved. It allowed him a couple of rosy years with the MoD and then the money was all gone.. and thats what we've been like ever since.
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Al,
They were sold to Anningtons on the 5th Nov '96. I'm not disputing that GB had the cash to play with, but he didn't approve the sale. We have Portillo to thank for that one.
They were sold to Anningtons on the 5th Nov '96. I'm not disputing that GB had the cash to play with, but he didn't approve the sale. We have Portillo to thank for that one.
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First Pembrey, now this. 
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Oops disregard - Just saw the other thread.