Non-Commissioned Pilots
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Ralph, regarding your statement regarding what I assume is DE Officers doing more than one flying tour because of Apache, I beg to differ.
In my experience while serving with the first Attack Sqn only one of the Capt's who was a flight commander has been posted into a second flying tour. One went to become an Adj, one went on to become the Regt'l Ops Offr (now a LUH Regt) and the one Capt (now Maj) who got a second flying tour, will be moved from his flying tour at AMTAT on promotion (heaven forbid that an officer with operational experience be allowed to pass that on to new officers graduating through CTR).
I guess that one of the reasons the manning levels on Attack Sqns are as low as they are because DE Officers must adhere to Army career profiles, not Army Air Corps desirable profiles and therefore must move on when their year of birth dictates they must in order that they be given the opportunity to reach the rank of General.
In my experience while serving with the first Attack Sqn only one of the Capt's who was a flight commander has been posted into a second flying tour. One went to become an Adj, one went on to become the Regt'l Ops Offr (now a LUH Regt) and the one Capt (now Maj) who got a second flying tour, will be moved from his flying tour at AMTAT on promotion (heaven forbid that an officer with operational experience be allowed to pass that on to new officers graduating through CTR).
I guess that one of the reasons the manning levels on Attack Sqns are as low as they are because DE Officers must adhere to Army career profiles, not Army Air Corps desirable profiles and therefore must move on when their year of birth dictates they must in order that they be given the opportunity to reach the rank of General.
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Its surprising how many SNCOs say that they could easily do an officer's job yet when offered a commission they turn it down.
Or did you mean offered the opportunity to compete for a commission?
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Shack37
1966, 206 Sqn, 2 x Sgt pilots, Nuclear Depth Charges.
History rewritten?
s37
Are you sure the dates are correct ?
I thought NCO pilots ceased being recruited in the mid 1950's. I do remember Master Pilots flying the Pembroke and similar in the 1960's. And I think I am right in saying that a welsh Master Pilot was still flying helicoptors from the OCU at Odiham in the 1970's.
We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'
Sgt pilots
Philrigger
When I went through the Shack MOTU in 1964/5 one Sgt Pilot was sent away for a few days to get sorted out with a new uniform and came back as an officer. G.... Y... where are you now?
Further when I arrived at BallyKelly and joined 210 the co-pilot on my first crew was a Sgt. He was pressurised into going for a comission but turned it down and left to fly for BEA/BOAC. We didn't get the boomers until the PhaseIII version of the Shacks came into service in (consults log-book)about the back end of 1966, and I'm pretty sure there were no NCO pilots or navs at BKY by that time.
The Ancient Mariner
Oh and PS most of my flying training was spent with FS and Master pilots and navs (as well as Fred Reeves)
When I went through the Shack MOTU in 1964/5 one Sgt Pilot was sent away for a few days to get sorted out with a new uniform and came back as an officer. G.... Y... where are you now?
Further when I arrived at BallyKelly and joined 210 the co-pilot on my first crew was a Sgt. He was pressurised into going for a comission but turned it down and left to fly for BEA/BOAC. We didn't get the boomers until the PhaseIII version of the Shacks came into service in (consults log-book)about the back end of 1966, and I'm pretty sure there were no NCO pilots or navs at BKY by that time.
The Ancient Mariner
Oh and PS most of my flying training was spent with FS and Master pilots and navs (as well as Fred Reeves)
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Philrigger,
I was on 206 fron 1962 to 1966 and we had 2 sgt pilots.
There was a gap mid/63 to mid/64 when I was away on a course so it's possible it was 62/63 but certainly not as early as the mid 50's.
From then on through 37Sqn, (66,67) and BK (68/71) there were no NCO pilots on Shacks that I'm aware of which fits with Rossian's version.
The phase three's were operational at St. Mawgan when I left there in June 66.
s37
I was on 206 fron 1962 to 1966 and we had 2 sgt pilots.
There was a gap mid/63 to mid/64 when I was away on a course so it's possible it was 62/63 but certainly not as early as the mid 50's.
From then on through 37Sqn, (66,67) and BK (68/71) there were no NCO pilots on Shacks that I'm aware of which fits with Rossian's version.
The phase three's were operational at St. Mawgan when I left there in June 66.
s37
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Wensleydale:
Your "theory" discounts those who, when it is suggested they should apply for a commission, chose not to simply because they like the people they currently associate with and don't wish to be a part of the "boyish high spirits" that take place in the Officers Mess.
Don't tell me, I already know... All your pals where totally spiffing chaps, mature, fun to be with, not arrogant or overbearing in the least and generally all round "bon oeufs". It's such a shame that 99% of the OR's never got to serve with your pals...
Your "theory" discounts those who, when it is suggested they should apply for a commission, chose not to simply because they like the people they currently associate with and don't wish to be a part of the "boyish high spirits" that take place in the Officers Mess.
Don't tell me, I already know... All your pals where totally spiffing chaps, mature, fun to be with, not arrogant or overbearing in the least and generally all round "bon oeufs". It's such a shame that 99% of the OR's never got to serve with your pals...
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Deliverance:
Funnily enough, of the four people in my AAITC course that I know their resulting situations, two are now officers, one is a Master ALM and one is a successful civilian earning six figures in the computer industry. To my knowledge, each one of them is very happy with their position.
The fact that each is happy where they are is indicative that not everyone aspires to the same things you do. The fact that some officers think that others should aspire to be like them is indicative of the arrogance I alluded to earlier.
Whether you like it or not choosing not to be an officer is not indicative of an inability to do the job, nor is it indicative of not wanting the responsibility. It is, plain and simply, a wish to do what we want to do not what others may feel "is best for us". Had I done that in my career I can assure you I would not be in the position I am now in and I most certainly would not have been as happy.
As you accurately noted there are good Officers, bad Officers, good SNCO Aircrew and bad SNCO Aircrew. I'm past caring what most officers think of me yet there are many I respect and some that are friends. What gets lost by many officers, and especially pilot types, is that the OR's, in more cases than you care to think of or care about, are equally hard working, loyal, reliable, trustworthy and yes, talented and intelligent as a large proportion of the officer cadre.
So, I'm prepared to sit here and "poison" flight crews while I see blatant arrogance and misplaced superiority being spouted by those that suffer from such "ailments".
Cry all you like about what I say... I'm just the mirror of many of the men you deal with daily... except I'm sufficiently anonymous and removed in this medium to be able to say it to your face, so to speak.
Edited in order to avoid spelling Nazis.
Funnily enough, of the four people in my AAITC course that I know their resulting situations, two are now officers, one is a Master ALM and one is a successful civilian earning six figures in the computer industry. To my knowledge, each one of them is very happy with their position.
The fact that each is happy where they are is indicative that not everyone aspires to the same things you do. The fact that some officers think that others should aspire to be like them is indicative of the arrogance I alluded to earlier.
Whether you like it or not choosing not to be an officer is not indicative of an inability to do the job, nor is it indicative of not wanting the responsibility. It is, plain and simply, a wish to do what we want to do not what others may feel "is best for us". Had I done that in my career I can assure you I would not be in the position I am now in and I most certainly would not have been as happy.
As you accurately noted there are good Officers, bad Officers, good SNCO Aircrew and bad SNCO Aircrew. I'm past caring what most officers think of me yet there are many I respect and some that are friends. What gets lost by many officers, and especially pilot types, is that the OR's, in more cases than you care to think of or care about, are equally hard working, loyal, reliable, trustworthy and yes, talented and intelligent as a large proportion of the officer cadre.
So, I'm prepared to sit here and "poison" flight crews while I see blatant arrogance and misplaced superiority being spouted by those that suffer from such "ailments".
Cry all you like about what I say... I'm just the mirror of many of the men you deal with daily... except I'm sufficiently anonymous and removed in this medium to be able to say it to your face, so to speak.
Edited in order to avoid spelling Nazis.
Last edited by Airborne Aircrew; 15th Aug 2007 at 21:55.
Cunning Artificer
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As for UAVs, CAA regs require a qualified pilot to be in command when they fly outside of danger areas, so I don't see much of cost saving there
