We Can't Turn Them Away

[Sunray Minor]

Crikey Melchett,

Put them where exactly? For a few thousand Iraqi's the UK has more than enough room! Somehow I think our problems pale in comparison to the problems these Iraqis are facing: they work for the British and therefore seen as traitors and receive death threats...and you are more concerned about the fact that you may have to have Iraqis living down the road?

Would you advocate them never being able to live with their family? Even if that family was similarly threatened?

I find it hilarious that we can spend billions on destroying Iraq, but as soon as a little room has to be made in the UK for the people we have uprooted then howls of indignation errupt. Nimby-ism.

As for the UK "creaking under the weight of ilegal immigrants", what strain exactly are they putting us under? Iraq's neighbours are soaking up the outflow of refugees from Iraq much more than we are and they aren't the perpetrators of this.

We are in Iraq to get the country back on its feet and make it a place for Iraqis to live in. If all we are going to do is let our troops die and then invite hoards of Iraqis into the UK, that would suggest that we have failed and the whole venture has been a waste of time, money and more importantly British lives. If Basrah is an unsafe sh1thole, then it is about time the Iraqis took some responsibility for themselves and sorted it out.

That statement makes me want it puke, in all it's ignorance, self righteousness and naivety.

Sorry, but the Ghurkas have a fair case which I support to the hilt. Iraqis of dubious character, forget it, the security implications are just too great. Let the silent partners in the coalition of the willing actually do something for once and take them if it's that bad.

In case you had missed it, there is no coalition of the willing, so stop asking everyone else to do something for you. And since when have Iraqis who have put their lives on the line to support British troops and are no longer welcome in their own country scroungers of dubious character?

ORAC, I'm even more deeply shocked I seem to be in agreement with you.

[Melchett01]

....and you are more concerned about the fact that you may have to have Iraqis living down the road?

Well if you want them, lets have your address and we'll send them to live next door to you. What's that, cries of what will it do to the neighbourhood??? Yes I thought so. But, if you insist, please prove to me that the Iraqis we let into the country have absolutely no connections to any of the militia organisations that have been involved in murdering British forces. Can't do it? Again, didn't think so. Your attitude is the one that demonstrates a staggeringly frightening naivety concerning the overall security situation and the threat posed to Britain by Islamic extremists determined to put as many British people in body bags as possible. If you want to invite them in, prove beyond all doubt that they weren't involved in last weeks IDF attacks that sent 4 of our own home in body bags; prove that they weren't involved in downing the Lynx in Basrah or the slaughter of the RMPs at Al MAK. Prove that they aren't involved in smuggling weapons and bombs into Iraq and won't bring that knowledge with them to the UK. Again, no? Didn't think so.

Quote:
We are in Iraq to get the country back on its feet and make it a place for Iraqis to live in. If all we are going to do is let our troops die and then invite hoards of Iraqis into the UK, that would suggest that we have failed and the whole venture has been a waste of time, money and more importantly British lives. If Basrah is an unsafe sh1thole, then it is about time the Iraqis took some responsibility for themselves and sorted it out.
That statement makes me want it puke, in all it's ignorance, self righteousness and naivety

As for ignorance and naivety - I don't think so. I have been directly involved in operations in Iraq before TELIC even started in 2003. I have enough time in Iraq under my belt to seriously consider buying a house in country rather than in the UK and I have seen friend killed in ac shootdowns and blown apart by mortar rounds which meant we couldn't even fill their coffins. Don't even think about lecturing me on ignorance and naivety concerning Iraqi issues. When you even come close to matching that level of experience then you might have a leg to stand on, until that point don't even think about it. If you don't like it, then I suggest you go get a bucket and puke all you like - that is the reality of the situation, to invite 1000s of Iraqis over here now would be nothing more than an admission we have failed. Plus, with an entire army division, one of the better ones at that, in place in Basrah I see no reason why they should not sort it out themselves.

I could go on, but quite frankly I can't be bothered, I would just be wasting my time trying to get one of Tony's beloved force for good brigade to realise the implications of this. You need to wake up and realise what is really going on - it has bugger all similarilty to what the politicians, press and generals are portraying.

You accuse me of ignorance and naivety, but your attitudes are dangerous and will lead to British people dying on British streets. Maybe not tomorrow or next week, but the risks are quite frankly too great. If you can't see that then maybe people with your attitudes should be taken off the streets as a security risk in your own right. I think you will find you are much happier on a Stop The War or Liberal Democrat forum than you are here; you won't find much in the way of support for your position here.

[Sunray Minor]

What's that, cries of what will it do to the neighbourhood???

Quite the opposite. I'm more than happy for them to live next door to me. Send them over. They can join the ethnic mixing pot of my neighbourhood that thankfully seems to benefit from an absence of bigots like yourself.

Your hospitality to those fighting for your country seems to be a lot less than mine, which is ironic since I have never agreed with this whole Iraq invasion in the first place.

Worth considering, the intelligence that our forces are so dependent on comes from interrogations that must be done by Iraqis, as well as these same Iraqis being on patrol with our forces providing translation services and logistical support. These same Iraqi's are putting their money where their mouths are, putting their asses on the line and making a far greater contribution to Iraq than I suspect you ever have, yet from the comfort of Middle England your biggest concern seems to be the bother accommodating them will cause to your neighbourhood. Get with the real world Melchett.

Those Iraqis working for us are the bread and butter of any success there but when their tour is over they have to live with the consequences, good or bad. If you want Iraqi's to put their asses on the line, it may be beneficial that your middle class suburban utopia yeilds a little of its milky whiteness to these very people. Or is that just too much to bear?

You seem to have created a mentality that all Iraqi's are guilty of militia involvement until proven innocent. Far from me harbouring any naivety to Islamic extremism you seem to hold paranoia and hysteria.

These employees of our forces are receiving death threats from militias and in one recent case a mini-bus of translators was ambushed and they were executed.....is that enough evidence for you? Or were they also guilty of murdering British troops?

[Melchett01]

Sunray,

I'm not even going to bother with this any more. Your view is a minority view, both within the military and the British public at large. You are entitled to it, but it is 180 degrees out of kilter with opinion and the realities of the security and intelligence situation.

Your job description on your profile says it all.

[ORAC]

Melchett01, I hope you are wrong about public opinion.

Just so as people can know who we are talking about..

The Independent, Nov 2006: Interpreters used by British Army 'hunted down' by Iraqi death

Iraqi interpreters working with the British Army in Basra are being systematically hunted down and killed. At least 21 have been kidnapped and shot in the head over the past three weeks, their bodies dumped in different parts of the city. Another three are still missing. In a single mass killing, 17 interpreters were killed.......

[Sunray Minor]

That would be a good idea Melchett, if anything to prevent further foot in mouth disease.

Ironic that you feel the security risk of these workers bars their entry to the UK....meanwhile Danish forces operating in the same region and from the same base don't see it that way, pulling out an Iraqi (and their family) for every two Danish troops brought home. I hope you realise Denmark is even smaller than the UK.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...d/4983678.html

[stickmonkeytamer]

Watch out for this lot!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/6290302.stm

"the MILF is currently engaged in peace talks with the government" - fantastic name! Just imagine if your job title was "the chief negotiator for the MILF"...

SMT

[ZH875]

Originally Posted by Sunray Minor

I hope you realise Denmark is even smaller than the UK.

With a population of around 5.5 million, which is around 11 times smaller than the UK. Is Denmark 11 times smaller than the UK by habited land area?.

Melchett01 seems to have the general public's view.

Just think, if we bring in 'just the family' of the Iraqi's, is that the extended family, the bloke around the corner who shops in the Iraqi blokes dads shop, or just the bloke and everyone else who goes to his mosque?.

Personally, I don't think the Iraqi's work for the UK government, I think they work for whoever will pay them money, no matter who that is!.

[Re-Heat]

I am utterly disgusted by the situation, and utterly disgusted by the views on this board against helping these individuals.

I see little difference between the situation here and those of the Gurkha regiment, particularly as a result of the situation inflicted by Rumsfeld's pi$$ poor planning.

I was going to post more, but am at a loss.

[Re-Heat]

Just think, if we bring in 'just the family' of the Iraqi's, is that the extended family, the bloke around the corner who shops in the Iraqi blokes dads shop, or just the bloke and everyone else who goes to his mosque?.

Brilliant - our GDP rises by 20 persons-worth or so. How do you reckon we are otherwise going to fund those unfunded public-sector pensions...

[Re-Heat]

I take it that Melchett's response (before he deleted it, it was just this alone: ) means he is prepared to reduce his pension by reducing immigration.

There is an economic argument for immigration
There is an moral argument for aiding certain professionals in this case
Professionals are fleeing Iraq (2.2m at last count - source: Economist) - why not use their services

All arguments against that I have read above are quite frankly NIMBYish, quasi-racist and close to the BNP's views.

[Flip Flop Flyer]

ZH875

Denmark is roughly 35.000 sqm (not including Greenland and the Faroe Islands). The United Kingdom is roughly 245.000 sqm.

After pressure starting from the Danish troops, then the media and general population, the DK government finally decided to do what is right and evacuate the translators and their families - in total around 200 people. They are not, however, granted immediate asylum. Like everybody else, they'll have to go through the process. The general feeling, however, is that they will indeed be granted asylum. Please note, the number of 200 includes immediate families.

The whole story unfolded when one of the translators was found murdered, having been subjected to the most hideous of torture by his captures. This sparked the Danish troops to appeal, via the chain of command, for the government to save these people. Amongst the Danish troops, the translators were considered to be part of the team, and the feeling was they should be treated as such.


Danish immigration laws does allow refugees to apply for family re-unification, but the law is very cleverly written. If family re-unification is granted, then it will be decided to which country the unified family has primary relation. If they find the primary relation is their country of origin, then ir's a one-way ticket back to that nation. Has worked wonders in cutting down un-needed family re-unification (i.e. uncles, aunts, 4th cousins and so forth). The law does state, however, that the immediate family (parents and children - not grand parents) will be given asylum.

These laws has persuaded the vast majority of economical refugees to seek asylum in places other than Denmark. Some call us racists, I say we're realists. From some of the above replies, Britain seems to be heading for a state of institutional xenophobia. Your utterly feckless immigration laws have undoutedly had an impact, but please don't make the error of painting all potential immigrants with the same brush. Saving your Iraqi translators, and their immediate families, is the right and honourable thing to do. Has the British Armed Forces lost it's humanity and honour?

[Melchett01]

Re-heat,

Thank you for your obviously well informed open source media arguments. Whilst I respect the Economist as being one of the more reliable journalistic institutions, did they state how much these professionals would take out of the economy in the form of welfare payments and assistance for their huge extended families? Probably a damn site more than the 20-pax contribution towards the country's GDP you were suggesting.

However, it is interesting to note that the majority of people clamouring to let these Iraqis into the UK are from outside the military community putting their lives on the line on a regular basis in Iraq. Most likely making their arguments from the comfort of a warm office or comfy chair and totally ignorant of what is actually happening on the ground in Iraq. Spend 6 months on the ground and we'll see by just how much your opinion changes.

And of course, because these people are "professionals", they are obviously beyond reproach and would never do anything to harm the UK or its people would they? Now just remind me, who was it that drove a burning Jeep into Glasgow Airport - oh yes, a professional doctor from Baghdad.

Arm chair generals - you gotta love them.

[WorkingHard]

Orac said "The UK immigration figures show about 150,000 people move here every year"
I fear you are very wrong sir, if for no other reason than the DSS issued 750,000 new national insurance numbers to immigrants last year alone. This is the DSS own figures by the way and accounts for only those seeking work here. How many more are here and not seeking work? I am all for reasoned debate on such matters but let us please have the facts if we are going to debate the issue.

[An Teallach]

So, Melchett. Would you be happy to leave the Iraqi interpreter who had worked the streets of Basra with your platoon for 6 months to the death squads?

What does that say about your loyalty to your team?

[Re-Heat]

However, it is interesting to note that the majority of people clamouring to let these Iraqis into the UK are from outside the military community putting their lives on the line on a regular basis in Iraq.

I have friends there, virtually all my UAS year-group have been there, I know of people killed there, and I am painfully aware of the situation on the ground. My opinion would differ not a jot if I were in Basra: it is your views that appear fickle if they have changed having experienced "reality".

Economists are unequivocal as to the benefits of immigration even disregarding Eastern Europeans; a quick search of past articles both in the aforementioned publication and on the internet (ignoring biased left and right standpoints) is consistent: selected quotes below.

In response to your reference to the Glasgow bombers - before you rush to judgement, and knowing full well that extremists come from all backgrounds, races and creeds, do you actually know an British Iraqi family before you post such tripe.

It is a common misconception that immigrants travel thousands of miles paying hundreds of pounds in costs of travel to sit on their ass at our costs. Unfortunately it is largely our very own chav underclass that forms the vast majority if incapacity claimants.

Spain has benefited in many ways. Social-security receipts have increased, postponing a pensions crisis. Migrants have stoked demand, helping annual GDP growth reach 3.7%. They have even turned around the country's declining birth rate.

Britain: Since the election in May 1997, working-age employment has risen by 2.1m. Yet almost all this increase can be attributed to a rising population, in large measure because of higher immigration.

The National Institute of Economic and Social Research, a think-tank, estimates that new immigrants have boosted output by more than 1% since 2004 (and by over 3% since 1997). But as other EU countries open their labour markets, the flow to Britain may dwindle.

[Re-Heat]

I fear you are very wrong sir, if for no other reason than the DSS issued 750,000 new national insurance numbers to immigrants last year alone. This is the DSS own figures by the way and accounts for only those seeking work here. How many more are here and not seeking work? I am all for reasoned debate on such matters but let us please have the facts if we are going to debate the issue.

True - 750,000 numbers issued.
Error in the above - NI numbers are required for benefits, therefore, no further numbers are here, not seeking work AND are a burden on the DWP.
Huge omission in the above - DWP note that a substantion proportion of the above (particularly Eastern Europeans) return to their homelands each year as well, hugely reducing net effect.

[Sunray Minor]

Melchett,

Firstly, we are not all from outside of the military community by a long shot! And for those that are, their viewpoints are no less valid. If you think the work of translators is not respected, perhaps read the link I provided which poignantly notes a Danish crews translator providing ammunition to their gunner when engaged. I for one wouldn't spend 6 months on the ground without native translators!

As for the the drain on state coffers asylum seekers cause, I suspect your views are more tainted more by the Daily Mail than they are by reality. Asylum costs us three fifths of nothing. If you have an economical argument, better you took it up with the hedge fund managers paying no tax, the born and bred English costing us a fortune in prison or the drunken white yobs wasting police time and causing property damage every weekend.

Your attitude to these people is utterly paranoid.

[Melchett01]

I think you will find the main tenet of my original argument has more to do with concern over security issues than economic issues. It is yourself and Re-heat that are heavily playing the economic argument. And nor am I questioning the validity of having local translators for use by troops on the ground. That many of them are locals who happen to speak English doing the job for money rather than the fact that they love Auntie Liz and everything UK Plc stands for rather than being professionally qualified translators and interpretors is another matter entirely (our 'terp in the Balkans was one such example of this).

However, if you cannot see that Iraq is not conventional warfare, that we are fighting a counter-insurgency operation where the enemy doesn't make themselves readily apparent then you are missing the whole point of my argument.

If you can 100% guarantee that the people you want to bring into the UK have played no part in the deaths of or attacks on UK or coalition forces and that neither they nor any member of their extended families who will inveitably follow in tow have links to these militias, then crack on. However, you can't. And I for one am not prepared to put the safety and security of the average man in the British street at risk to salve the consciences of a few liberals who object to this whole (ghastly and ill advised) intervention. And I am not prepared to apologise for standing up and stating that I believe the security of the UK and its people must come before the security of locals in Basrah.

But as this whole argument rumbles on, I do find myself increasingly wondering why now? This phenomenon is not new, it has been going on quite openly and blatently since late 2003 / early 2004. And it has probably happened in every conflict we have fought in where we have engaged LECs to work for us. So why the sudden cries of outrage now? It will still be happening in 2008, 2009 and 2010. When we are not there, they will find some petty reason or personal, familial or tribal slight to kill each other over. Do you propose to continue to allow people being killed in inter-ethnic fighting the right to come to the UK just because you feel it is our moral duty to allow them to do so? Where do you draw the line? I would be interested to know, because this will set a precedent and a dangerous one that will see extremists arriving on the streets of Britain amongst their numbers.

If however, you are desperate to pull these people out of Iraq, why does the UK not pay for them to be re-settled elsewhere - not necessarily the UK - but out of harms way?

On a final note, I had a good look at the Blog you linked to. There was an interesting statement running along the top:

" Liberty, if it means anything is the right to tell people what they don't want to hear".

A very noble sentiment and one that goes to the heart of freedom of speach. Unless of course, you live in Britain in 2007, where if you dare to disagree with the prevailing wooly liberal theories and ideals, you are shouted down and vilified with a near totalitarian zeal as an outrageous lunatic fringe element. An interesting divergence of ideals and reality don't you think?

[mutleyfour]

Ok, I am now off the fence and sat squarely in your corner Melchett01.

Didnt want you to feel lonely...