Carson Blades
Not unlike the BERP blades then - a higher camber section on the outboard end to provide more lift at slower speeds on the retreating side and a cambered section with a reflex trailing edge to compensate for the twisting moments on the outboard section caused by movement of centre of pressure as AoA varies. The tip will deal with the high speed problems on the advancing side - compressibility and critical mach No - probably the same way as the BERP blades too - a thin, swept tip like a supersonic wing.
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Please explain the concept behind the "Indian Tail" rotor...i haven't heard of this before.
Not knowing much about the rotors, is this the bit where it takes form similar to a concorde wing, infact nearly exactly the same form?
I was being explained too about the blades on the Lynx HMA8 by an 815NAS pilot, he went through the various features including the kink in the blade half way down, the tips (i assume are BERPs?) and the supersonic wing like shape right on the tip of each blade.
a thin, swept tip like a supersonic wing.
I was being explained too about the blades on the Lynx HMA8 by an 815NAS pilot, he went through the various features including the kink in the blade half way down, the tips (i assume are BERPs?) and the supersonic wing like shape right on the tip of each blade.
Five bladed tail rotor???
That is what the Sea King started with in 1969! Six blades fitted in the mid 70's. Am I missing something??
(Besides a few vino induced braincells!)
That is what the Sea King started with in 1969! Six blades fitted in the mid 70's. Am I missing something??
(Besides a few vino induced braincells!)
Razor - correct, the thin section allows higher speeds before reaching Mcrit and the sweep effectively gives a longer chord and forces any mach waves to propagate at 90 degrees to the leading edge.
The kink in the trailing edge of the BERP blade is where the 2 different aerofoil sections meet and ckearly shows the reflex trailing edge of the inboard section.
3D - I don't comprehend the wisdom of returning to a 5 bladed TR either unless they have improved its lifting capability by cambering the aerofoils.
The kink in the trailing edge of the BERP blade is where the 2 different aerofoil sections meet and ckearly shows the reflex trailing edge of the inboard section.
3D - I don't comprehend the wisdom of returning to a 5 bladed TR either unless they have improved its lifting capability by cambering the aerofoils.
As far as I recall the "Indian" tail rotor was 5 blades but better design including cambered blades giving more thrust (long time ago now). The Carson blades add roughly 10 kt and 1500 lbs lift capability on an S61 for the same power.
Quote from a colleague who did an evaluation flight test of the Carson blades in Canada: "Send money now".
Quote from a colleague who did an evaluation flight test of the Carson blades in Canada: "Send money now".
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That's all very well, but what happens when all the cabs have shaken themselves to pieces in 4 years?
That will put a fly in the ointment of Sea King 4 life extension to 2017.
That will put a fly in the ointment of Sea King 4 life extension to 2017.
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Sorry Chaps,
The BERP being no longer 'experimental', I thought the correct term for the Westlands blade was the Advanced Surface and Planform (ASP) blade, or am I mistaken?
Secondly, I believed increases in max speed in the order of 140kts for SK had been mentioned on these forums with the new blade. This would seem to be in conflict with a mere 10kt increases also mentioned by Steve. Without compomising opsec, is there an increase quantified as if the IRT is to be taken on by SK then speed of response may well be compromised by a somewhat slower cruise speed than the venerable Chinook?
Always willing to be educated,
HEDP
The BERP being no longer 'experimental', I thought the correct term for the Westlands blade was the Advanced Surface and Planform (ASP) blade, or am I mistaken?
Secondly, I believed increases in max speed in the order of 140kts for SK had been mentioned on these forums with the new blade. This would seem to be in conflict with a mere 10kt increases also mentioned by Steve. Without compomising opsec, is there an increase quantified as if the IRT is to be taken on by SK then speed of response may well be compromised by a somewhat slower cruise speed than the venerable Chinook?
Always willing to be educated,
HEDP
Originally Posted by HEDP
... the Westlands blade ...
ASP was a term bandied about in the past, but WHL press releases nowadays refer to BERP IV.
I heard a rumour that Carson are buying S61's and Sea Kings to give them the full Carson modification - MR, TR and lifting frames with the promise of 160kt cruise, 25,000lbs AUM and no cracking.
Then they will probably sell them to the MoD who still won't have done anything about addressing the shortfall in heli lift capability and who will then have to pay twice as much for them as they would if they just got Carson in to modify our existing fleet.
If they could just stop them leaking when it rains............
Then they will probably sell them to the MoD who still won't have done anything about addressing the shortfall in heli lift capability and who will then have to pay twice as much for them as they would if they just got Carson in to modify our existing fleet.
If they could just stop them leaking when it rains............
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Stop Sea Kings leaking???
You must be off your noddle matey
We all know that the best place to put the gobbby booty is underneath the drip tray after a heavy rainfall. Gloop! And he's covered with OM15 and water mix after the first banked turn!
Anyways - MOD has done something about adressing the lift shortfall - the Danish Merlin and also Chinook Mk3 reversion....
You must be off your noddle matey
We all know that the best place to put the gobbby booty is underneath the drip tray after a heavy rainfall. Gloop! And he's covered with OM15 and water mix after the first banked turn!
Anyways - MOD has done something about adressing the lift shortfall - the Danish Merlin and also Chinook Mk3 reversion....
Originally Posted by crab
I heard a rumour that Carson are buying S61's and Sea Kings to give them the full Carson modification - MR, TR and lifting frames with the promise of 160kt cruise, 25,000lbs AUM and no cracking.
The blade performance is truly remarkable, but your mooted higher cruise speed is a recipe for disaster unless some serious re-rigging of the flight controls is achieved. As for the stress on the airframe, I'm not at all sure the old girl would take much in the way of significantly higher cruise speed?
John - this is a rumour network and I heard the rumour but couldn't validate its veracity. 160kts does sound a bit unlikely though
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Trials in US going well. Performance is in excess of expectation. I wouldn't bank on the Sea King getting BERP IV now as I don't think the Sea king can take a paddle tip, only a swept tip so BERP IV performance increase over Carson will be marginal at best.
Serves wastelands right for not pulling finger out and developing sooner.
Bring on the life extention programme.
Serves wastelands right for not pulling finger out and developing sooner.
Bring on the life extention programme.
The irony is that MoD were offered BERP blades for the SK when they were first being developed and some genius decided that it would be better (cheaper) to go for plastic blades exactly the same shape as the metal ones.
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You sure on that, crab?
I thought the SK was a sort of production-level test of the technology for making composite blades in industrial quantities. Once Westlands had cracked the production process they then went on to exploit it to produce complex shapes (for other types).
I could be wrong of course, and it is a memory from a long time back.
Sven
I thought the SK was a sort of production-level test of the technology for making composite blades in industrial quantities. Once Westlands had cracked the production process they then went on to exploit it to produce complex shapes (for other types).
I could be wrong of course, and it is a memory from a long time back.
Sven
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Carson Blades -
Sorry guys, this is all semantics to me - why on earth are we trying to patch up an aircraft that is long past its sell by date. All of this money and effort for what real benefit.
She has been a superb aircraft (and still is in certain roles) but as an SH in a JPR or lift role - sorry I think that we are chasing rainbows when you look at the threat, temperatures and height together.
I fail to realise why we dont just cut our losses and sort out the shortage of lift problem once and for all. Whether we like it or not the Freaks are doing a pretty good job and satisfies the medium side of the market, the twin bladed torque monster is doing admirably with the larger end - and soon, f we really do need a small battlefield taxi to ferry Melchett and Darling around we will have Future Lynx (or whatever it is called today!).
My point being - we have already brought some more Merlins, lets buy some more CH 47 - give them to the Junglies and let the Junglie boys crack on with what they are good at, but with proper aircraft - not trying to bluff politicians, press, military top brass not in the know and in some cases the aircrew that carson blades makes the NAO report all go away and help the commanders/guys on the ground.
And what makes it worst, that heaven forbid if something happens for whatever reason there is absolutely no way that the future BoI will record that the aincident/accident was actually caused by inadequate funding or low resources - nope it will mention the authorisation or supervision or mis handling hot n high or whatever - but it will not say ' hey fellas, dont worry we knew that we were expecting alot from you but we didn't have anything else so sorry someone/something had to go!
Now if I am wrong and the Junglie bunch think that the Carson blades are the silver bullet then I will 'suck back' (you see I am Joint - I know some fishead lingo!) - but with Boeing/Westlands already in bed with Apache, current CH 47, Presedential 101 then surely under a US Foreign Military Sales agreement some CH 47s can come from somewhere (as the 101s came from the Danes?)
She has been a superb aircraft (and still is in certain roles) but as an SH in a JPR or lift role - sorry I think that we are chasing rainbows when you look at the threat, temperatures and height together.
I fail to realise why we dont just cut our losses and sort out the shortage of lift problem once and for all. Whether we like it or not the Freaks are doing a pretty good job and satisfies the medium side of the market, the twin bladed torque monster is doing admirably with the larger end - and soon, f we really do need a small battlefield taxi to ferry Melchett and Darling around we will have Future Lynx (or whatever it is called today!).
My point being - we have already brought some more Merlins, lets buy some more CH 47 - give them to the Junglies and let the Junglie boys crack on with what they are good at, but with proper aircraft - not trying to bluff politicians, press, military top brass not in the know and in some cases the aircrew that carson blades makes the NAO report all go away and help the commanders/guys on the ground.
And what makes it worst, that heaven forbid if something happens for whatever reason there is absolutely no way that the future BoI will record that the aincident/accident was actually caused by inadequate funding or low resources - nope it will mention the authorisation or supervision or mis handling hot n high or whatever - but it will not say ' hey fellas, dont worry we knew that we were expecting alot from you but we didn't have anything else so sorry someone/something had to go!
Now if I am wrong and the Junglie bunch think that the Carson blades are the silver bullet then I will 'suck back' (you see I am Joint - I know some fishead lingo!) - but with Boeing/Westlands already in bed with Apache, current CH 47, Presedential 101 then surely under a US Foreign Military Sales agreement some CH 47s can come from somewhere (as the 101s came from the Danes?)
Last edited by MaroonMan4; 5th Aug 2007 at 08:55.
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Surley patching the RAF`s Pumas and the Fleet Air Arms Seaking 4 is just going to create a bottle kneck further down the line as will they not need replacing round about the same time as the Bulk of the RAF`s Chinook Fleet. This is probally thread creep but to me we seem to have two problems to contend with an immediate shortage of capabiltiy, and a need to replace those types with new to maintain and maximise future roatry wing capability in the future. Rather than sending you guys to war in the equivalent of a Ford Cortina (Sorry for you youngsters who might only have vague recollections of your Dads pride and joy-If I recal the Seaking Mk 4 entered service the same time as Fords produced their Mk 4 Cortinas - now how many Cortinas do you see on the road today). OK here`s an idea The Forward Active Fleet for the RAF Chinook Fleet acording to the DASA is 25 the total Chinook Fleet is 40 that leaves fifteen airframes in Reserve and if I recall the Merlin Forward Active Fleet is 15 again According to DASA which leaves Seven. So why can these not be brought into use to satisfy the immediate need and acquire new airframes as attrition replacements. Or is it a case that those aircraft from the reserve fleet have been canablised that much that they will not be flying in a month of Sundays? The UK already owns these aircraft, would not have to go shopping for new and they are of a type already deployed into Afghanistan and Iraq
Last edited by RumourMonger; 8th Aug 2007 at 23:26. Reason: Spelling Error
MM4
One minor problem. The Junglies are supposed to go to sea - not all the time and obviously not exclusively, but they must be able to do so for extended periods. Without folding heads that just isn't a practical proposition for the Wokka despite the sterling efforts put in by the Odiham lads (and the Air and AE departments of Ocean & Ark). Just ask them about the problems they have with blade sailing and relative wod.
Ditto Merlin 3 & 3A although with less of the blade-sail issues.
If we were to buy a Junglie Merlin, then the IT navy amphib version would probably be it, although at less payload than the 3/3A for obvious reasons. If we don't, then Mr Sikorsky has an option at the heavier end of the market, but that's a new fleet.
There is NO easy way forward for what was FASH before it became SABR and FRC. But a way forward has to be found - as you say patching up the SK4 is just storing up trouble for the future.
One minor problem. The Junglies are supposed to go to sea - not all the time and obviously not exclusively, but they must be able to do so for extended periods. Without folding heads that just isn't a practical proposition for the Wokka despite the sterling efforts put in by the Odiham lads (and the Air and AE departments of Ocean & Ark). Just ask them about the problems they have with blade sailing and relative wod.
Ditto Merlin 3 & 3A although with less of the blade-sail issues.
If we were to buy a Junglie Merlin, then the IT navy amphib version would probably be it, although at less payload than the 3/3A for obvious reasons. If we don't, then Mr Sikorsky has an option at the heavier end of the market, but that's a new fleet.
There is NO easy way forward for what was FASH before it became SABR and FRC. But a way forward has to be found - as you say patching up the SK4 is just storing up trouble for the future.
Last edited by Not_a_boffin; 10th Aug 2007 at 08:30. Reason: spelling
Not_a_boffin
Jane's Fighting Ships listed the Merlin HC3 as a "shipborne aircraft". Has it ever been to sea?
It also mentions a marinised Chinook study.
MM4 isn't there a case for JHC having several diferent sized aircraft?
Also will the Sea King ASaC 7 get the new blades? Could the new blade enhance the performance of the Merlin as a potential MASC platform (as discussed on the Future Carrier thread)?
I would like to say sorry for asking this very daft question, since I know Merlin blades are very different from Sea King ones. Unless of course Sea King ASaC 7 + new blades = MASC
Jane's Fighting Ships listed the Merlin HC3 as a "shipborne aircraft". Has it ever been to sea?
It also mentions a marinised Chinook study.
MM4 isn't there a case for JHC having several diferent sized aircraft?
Also will the Sea King ASaC 7 get the new blades? Could the new blade enhance the performance of the Merlin as a potential MASC platform (as discussed on the Future Carrier thread)?
I would like to say sorry for asking this very daft question, since I know Merlin blades are very different from Sea King ones. Unless of course Sea King ASaC 7 + new blades = MASC
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 11th Aug 2007 at 14:32.
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WEBF.
"Could the new blade enhance the performance of the Merlin as a potential MASC platform (as discussed on the Future Carrier thread)? "
Since the new rules pertinent to the discussion of military matters on the web prohibit me from explaining just how stupid a question that is, I will have to satisfy myself with this.
"Could the new blade enhance the performance of the Merlin as a potential MASC platform (as discussed on the Future Carrier thread)? "
Since the new rules pertinent to the discussion of military matters on the web prohibit me from explaining just how stupid a question that is, I will have to satisfy myself with this.