Neighbours war with wounded soldiers families
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Further to my last...
Have just been told that the story has appeared in two of the "local" papers, one on the front page and the other a half page article. Both stating factually SSAFA's case..
Cheer's
M5DND
Have just been told that the story has appeared in two of the "local" papers, one on the front page and the other a half page article. Both stating factually SSAFA's case..
Cheer's
M5DND
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Headley/ - 1937 names now.
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Pontius,
The Google images must be well out of date so ignore them. None of the houses at that end of the road have any construction going on, including no.36.
The Google images must be well out of date so ignore them. None of the houses at that end of the road have any construction going on, including no.36.
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Tigs
I apologise if I gave the impression that I was having a go in some way as I didn't intend that and it wasn't what I was getting at. It's the fight fire with fire approach that strikes me as somehow missing the point. Pointing out that there are a number of businesses registered in the street already is a potentially dangerous tactic for 3 reasons:
Edited to add: I see that the petition has now broken 2000 signatories.
I apologise if I gave the impression that I was having a go in some way as I didn't intend that and it wasn't what I was getting at. It's the fight fire with fire approach that strikes me as somehow missing the point. Pointing out that there are a number of businesses registered in the street already is a potentially dangerous tactic for 3 reasons:
- There is a difference between running a business in the street and having a business registered there (Witness the withdrawal of the cattery application owing to the 'nature of the street' test) and using the argument possibly makes it look like this is a business in the second category and so more likely to be an issue.
- If the case is won, but IR or the council sniff around the NIMBY's financial matters as a result of this approach, it would cause such ill-feeling in the street that SSAFA wouldn't want to be there anyway.
- It gets away from the fundemental point that this isn't a business and so the objection is irrelevant.
Edited to add: I see that the petition has now broken 2000 signatories.
Last edited by Baskitt Kase; 21st Jul 2007 at 20:32.
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Images from Gray's Lane and surrounding area
Piespies from ARRSE has kindly collected images from various people and put them on flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10219376@N03/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10219376@N03/
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Baskitt
No worries
Agreed, we have given that advice to all concerned.
NOW FOR THE POWER OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING
Check this out, step back shoulders back and have a laaarff! I still cannot quite believe we have got onto Wiki with this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMBY#Examples
No worries
Agreed, we have given that advice to all concerned.
NOW FOR THE POWER OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING
Check this out, step back shoulders back and have a laaarff! I still cannot quite believe we have got onto Wiki with this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMBY#Examples
Last edited by Tigs2; 21st Jul 2007 at 21:50.
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MAdsDAd
Would you be kind enough to consider letting me know what he suggests as I'm in the same position as you?
I've got a meeting with my local councillor later, to check what the most effective way of wording a support letter would be (considering I have no direct connection).
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Can I suggest some co-ordination?
There are a number of parties who will be represented at planning committee, probably along the following lines.
1. Chair will be the chairman of the planning committee (assuming it is full committee).
2. The planning department making the recommendation, probably the boss.
3. The elected member from the ward (or members from wards) will have something to say.
4. The applicant.
5. Objectors.
6. Other representations.
This is for a minor (albeit controversial) change of use, the agenda can only be guessed at, but there are often higher priority applications. This will be one item among many so it won't be a meeting devoted to this issue.
Therefore, the scope for oral representations may well be limited and these will probably need to be arranged with the clerk of the committee beforehand. There is likely to be a time limit on representations, need to check council orders. I'd think there is scope for no more than a handful of representations in support of the application, and the chairman will want to ensure that the objectors have their say.
I'd suggest some co-ordination and communication between the principal parties involved on this side, on ARRSE and with SSAFA and the planning agent to ensure the best use of this possible opportunity. I'd suggest one point of contact liaising with the committee clerk. I'm happy to help draft or review representations as I have done this before. I'd suggest representations focus on the need for the facility and leave the planning issues to the applicant's agent - however, one or two brief rebuttals within each representation may well be appropriate.
There are a number of parties who will be represented at planning committee, probably along the following lines.
1. Chair will be the chairman of the planning committee (assuming it is full committee).
2. The planning department making the recommendation, probably the boss.
3. The elected member from the ward (or members from wards) will have something to say.
4. The applicant.
5. Objectors.
6. Other representations.
This is for a minor (albeit controversial) change of use, the agenda can only be guessed at, but there are often higher priority applications. This will be one item among many so it won't be a meeting devoted to this issue.
Therefore, the scope for oral representations may well be limited and these will probably need to be arranged with the clerk of the committee beforehand. There is likely to be a time limit on representations, need to check council orders. I'd think there is scope for no more than a handful of representations in support of the application, and the chairman will want to ensure that the objectors have their say.
I'd suggest some co-ordination and communication between the principal parties involved on this side, on ARRSE and with SSAFA and the planning agent to ensure the best use of this possible opportunity. I'd suggest one point of contact liaising with the committee clerk. I'm happy to help draft or review representations as I have done this before. I'd suggest representations focus on the need for the facility and leave the planning issues to the applicant's agent - however, one or two brief rebuttals within each representation may well be appropriate.
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Know your enemy
I've been thinking about what I saw and heard when traipsing up and down Gray's Lane and the surrounding roads, and trying to understand and hopefully give others an idea of the mindset of the residents objecting to SSAFA's proposal.
Thanks to relations of mine, I am already fairly familiar with this kind of pseudo private road setup, the kind of people who live there and their attitude to life.
Firstly, we are not dealing with 'flash bastards' and we are generally up against 'old money' rather then 'new money'. Given their size, the vast majority of the houses in the area are tasteful and generally restrained in style. I guesstimate that most date from the 1930s. There were only a very few examples of what can be done if you have 'too much money and not enough taste'.
There was a distinct lack of Porsches or other very expensive cars. Indeed it was quite the opposite - the majority were fairly ordinary and some quite old, suggesting a modest, hard working even frugal approach to life. Many of the residents appear to have lived there for a long time (as per some of their letters) and the dated decor of some of the houses.
If I had to guess at the typical resident I would say Company Director husband at close to retirement age, working in the city, possibly in the family business, with a wife who stayed at home for the children and who now lunches with similar.
They probably bought the house quite some time ago (before prices rocketed in the 80s?) with their own or family money. They are hard working and have money but use it as is expected in their circles - kids at public school, golf club membership (I saw lots of clubs on display) etc. They live in a (very!!) quiet road with people of similar status and it is their escape from the outside world.
Bad things do not generally happen to these people and they feel ensconsed in their private retreat from the big bad world outside. All the nasty things that happen to other people are kept nicely out of sight and sound. More to the point, the people those nasty things happen to are kept nicely out of sight and sound, be those people struggling to pay the gas bill or unsightly squaddies with ghastly injuries.
They are generally not used to dealing with 'ordinary' people, especially those whose circumstances are unknown, and this possibility frightens them. I.e. a company director will rarely have to deal directly with his blue collar staff - he has middle and junior managers for that. Mrs Company Director may be more au-fait with the process thanks to school, shopping etc but was mortified when the grocery store in Ashtead High Street ceased delivering. Andrew and Elizabeth were of course at private school which avoided having to mix with any ordinary parents.
However, these people are achievers, used to getting their way either through their position at work or by bullying / peer pressure / a 'follow the herd' mentality in their social lives. A personal example: a 'lady who lunches' that I knew spoke to me about a General Election saying "..of course you will be voting for us [Tory] won't you?" I asked "why?" and she replied "because that's what we do" There ensued a lively debate!!, one half of which consisted of the question "why?" A second and final personal example: A company director I knew who was not far off retirement once said to me: "you know the problem is that I've never met enough common ordinary people in life" Not that the b@stard ever tried!!
My point/summary I suppose is that these are people comfortably off and happy with their life(style). They are set in their ways and do not wish to be seen breaking ranks with their peers. They are to a large extent ignorant of the life outside their cosy estate because they do not have to witness it or deal with the consequences.
(If you're still with me), In the midst of this idyll, a neighbour comes knocking on your door telling you that a ghastly hostel is proposed in the middle of your neighbourhood. That there will be common people staying who will do terrible things to the area, who will roar up and down the road all day long in their cars, hold loud parties in the garden and whose unspeakable children will pollute the atmosphere with their foul language ("because that's what 'common people' do"). A simply awful prospect! The only answer is of course to send a strongly worded objection to the council to get this madness stopped. Which they have done in their dozens.
But why? And this is the slightly puzzling part. Why has there been such an overwhelming orchestration of the residents to complain so bitterly? A fair percentage of residents complaining I could understand but I cannot believe that virtually every single resident objected, based purely on their personal view on the matter (unless they really are all utterly selfish t@ssers). A look at the excuses they are coming up with shows that many are palpable nonsense and trying every possible angle.
This leaves two possible options: Either one or two individuals have misled the residents, deliberately or otherwise, as to the nature of the proposed change of use of 36 Gray's Lane due to their own selfish nature or certain persons have a vested interest in how the area is developed in the future. If there is another option then I'm blowed if I can see it right now but I'm open to persuasion.
CS
Edit to remind us of what this is all about:
Lifted from the Surrey Advertiser of 20th July:
Lance Corporal Michael Greggan has been a resident at Headley Court for three weeks. He is recovering from a smashed kneecap and nerve damage after his troop was ambushed while driving to Camp Holland in Afghanistan.
The 29 year old, who has two young children, said a place for his family to stay was very important.
He added: “If it wasn’t for my family, I wouldn’t have been able to get through the last couple of weeks.”
Thanks to relations of mine, I am already fairly familiar with this kind of pseudo private road setup, the kind of people who live there and their attitude to life.
Firstly, we are not dealing with 'flash bastards' and we are generally up against 'old money' rather then 'new money'. Given their size, the vast majority of the houses in the area are tasteful and generally restrained in style. I guesstimate that most date from the 1930s. There were only a very few examples of what can be done if you have 'too much money and not enough taste'.
There was a distinct lack of Porsches or other very expensive cars. Indeed it was quite the opposite - the majority were fairly ordinary and some quite old, suggesting a modest, hard working even frugal approach to life. Many of the residents appear to have lived there for a long time (as per some of their letters) and the dated decor of some of the houses.
If I had to guess at the typical resident I would say Company Director husband at close to retirement age, working in the city, possibly in the family business, with a wife who stayed at home for the children and who now lunches with similar.
They probably bought the house quite some time ago (before prices rocketed in the 80s?) with their own or family money. They are hard working and have money but use it as is expected in their circles - kids at public school, golf club membership (I saw lots of clubs on display) etc. They live in a (very!!) quiet road with people of similar status and it is their escape from the outside world.
Bad things do not generally happen to these people and they feel ensconsed in their private retreat from the big bad world outside. All the nasty things that happen to other people are kept nicely out of sight and sound. More to the point, the people those nasty things happen to are kept nicely out of sight and sound, be those people struggling to pay the gas bill or unsightly squaddies with ghastly injuries.
They are generally not used to dealing with 'ordinary' people, especially those whose circumstances are unknown, and this possibility frightens them. I.e. a company director will rarely have to deal directly with his blue collar staff - he has middle and junior managers for that. Mrs Company Director may be more au-fait with the process thanks to school, shopping etc but was mortified when the grocery store in Ashtead High Street ceased delivering. Andrew and Elizabeth were of course at private school which avoided having to mix with any ordinary parents.
However, these people are achievers, used to getting their way either through their position at work or by bullying / peer pressure / a 'follow the herd' mentality in their social lives. A personal example: a 'lady who lunches' that I knew spoke to me about a General Election saying "..of course you will be voting for us [Tory] won't you?" I asked "why?" and she replied "because that's what we do" There ensued a lively debate!!, one half of which consisted of the question "why?" A second and final personal example: A company director I knew who was not far off retirement once said to me: "you know the problem is that I've never met enough common ordinary people in life" Not that the b@stard ever tried!!
My point/summary I suppose is that these are people comfortably off and happy with their life(style). They are set in their ways and do not wish to be seen breaking ranks with their peers. They are to a large extent ignorant of the life outside their cosy estate because they do not have to witness it or deal with the consequences.
(If you're still with me), In the midst of this idyll, a neighbour comes knocking on your door telling you that a ghastly hostel is proposed in the middle of your neighbourhood. That there will be common people staying who will do terrible things to the area, who will roar up and down the road all day long in their cars, hold loud parties in the garden and whose unspeakable children will pollute the atmosphere with their foul language ("because that's what 'common people' do"). A simply awful prospect! The only answer is of course to send a strongly worded objection to the council to get this madness stopped. Which they have done in their dozens.
But why? And this is the slightly puzzling part. Why has there been such an overwhelming orchestration of the residents to complain so bitterly? A fair percentage of residents complaining I could understand but I cannot believe that virtually every single resident objected, based purely on their personal view on the matter (unless they really are all utterly selfish t@ssers). A look at the excuses they are coming up with shows that many are palpable nonsense and trying every possible angle.
This leaves two possible options: Either one or two individuals have misled the residents, deliberately or otherwise, as to the nature of the proposed change of use of 36 Gray's Lane due to their own selfish nature or certain persons have a vested interest in how the area is developed in the future. If there is another option then I'm blowed if I can see it right now but I'm open to persuasion.
CS
Edit to remind us of what this is all about:
Lifted from the Surrey Advertiser of 20th July:
Lance Corporal Michael Greggan has been a resident at Headley Court for three weeks. He is recovering from a smashed kneecap and nerve damage after his troop was ambushed while driving to Camp Holland in Afghanistan.
The 29 year old, who has two young children, said a place for his family to stay was very important.
He added: “If it wasn’t for my family, I wouldn’t have been able to get through the last couple of weeks.”
Last edited by cargosales; 22nd Jul 2007 at 00:15.
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Further to previous posts by self & others, any ideas for a meet up before attending ? Please PM me if felt necessary, I have been asked by others without direct access to let them know.
Sorry to disappoint anyone looking for rabble rousing,* we all mean this as a pre-amble to meet each other for a quick chat as we're usually just names with a common interest.
Then a quiet & sensible attendance at the planning meeting ( shame the objectors couldn't manage that when it was just them & one lawyer trying to speak for the CHARITY )...
*I assume some of the Reds must have worked out to look at this site - despite appearances they are probably that bright - so I hope they are looking forward to what they have brought upon themselves in national publicity !
Sorry to disappoint anyone looking for rabble rousing,* we all mean this as a pre-amble to meet each other for a quick chat as we're usually just names with a common interest.
Then a quiet & sensible attendance at the planning meeting ( shame the objectors couldn't manage that when it was just them & one lawyer trying to speak for the CHARITY )...
*I assume some of the Reds must have worked out to look at this site - despite appearances they are probably that bright - so I hope they are looking forward to what they have brought upon themselves in national publicity !
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Jess the Dog
Spot on...that's how our planning committee works down in my neck of the woods.
I am wondering if the monitoring officer at Mole Valley has really kept an eye on this?
i suspect that the District Auditors will be getting letters over some of the aspects involved.
I further hope that the local Authority solicitor will be in attendance and this time the chairman prevents any distasteful shouting down of people when making there oral representaions on the subject.
It would be good to meet in a local that serves coffee as well as other beverages as i have along drive and put real names to PPRuNe tags.
I am wondering if the monitoring officer at Mole Valley has really kept an eye on this?
i suspect that the District Auditors will be getting letters over some of the aspects involved.
I further hope that the local Authority solicitor will be in attendance and this time the chairman prevents any distasteful shouting down of people when making there oral representaions on the subject.
It would be good to meet in a local that serves coffee as well as other beverages as i have along drive and put real names to PPRuNe tags.
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Getting Together to Complain
Cargosales - many thanks for your detective work, your keen observation and comments, summed up in a highly perceptive post which makes the position much clearer. The only small question is why you should think it odd that these residents have banded together to raise their voices in almost universal objection? It is only what has happened here on Pprune!
I emphasise that I think that the residents are at least misguided, if not plain wrong, and the actions taken here have my full support, and financial too if that becomes an issue and expenses are incurred. I think that the way our fighting forces are treated is shameful, both in sandy places to the East and then when they get back here, fit if they are lucky, and with their minds and bodies shattered if they are unlucky.
I emphasise that I think that the residents are at least misguided, if not plain wrong, and the actions taken here have my full support, and financial too if that becomes an issue and expenses are incurred. I think that the way our fighting forces are treated is shameful, both in sandy places to the East and then when they get back here, fit if they are lucky, and with their minds and bodies shattered if they are unlucky.
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Originally Posted by Cargosales
This leaves two possible options: Either one or two individuals have misled the residents, deliberately or otherwise, as to the nature of the proposed change of use of 36 Gray's Lane due to their own selfish nature or certain persons have a vested interest in how the area is developed in the future. If there is another option then I'm blowed if I can see it right now but I'm open to persuasion.
By registering their protests they probably thought they had nothing to lose and never envisaged the uproar they would spark off. As it is, they stand pilloried and vilified by virtually everyone who has been made aware of the issue. Whether that has any effect on them, or whether their social and occupational circles raises them out of the need to be concerned about how they are perceived, remains to be seen.
From cargosale's brilliant assessment of the Gray Lane community, the residents are obviously people who are accustomed to having complete control of their lives. The sort of control that only a failure in health can overcome (and, hopefully, the power of the miltary community and the internet).
I would imagine that many of them give their time to "good works" but probably only within their narrow comfort zone. e.g. working in the local charity shop, or being a pillar of the local church.
Margo Leadbetter of the "Good Life" would probably be at home here.
I would imagine that many of them give their time to "good works" but probably only within their narrow comfort zone. e.g. working in the local charity shop, or being a pillar of the local church.
Margo Leadbetter of the "Good Life" would probably be at home here.
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Residents
Pulse1,
I doubt even ' Margo Leadbetter ' would have joined this resident's snake pit, as she was portrayed as a basically decent person - though Felicity Kendal gets my ' vote ' every time - in my dreams anyway...
I doubt even ' Margo Leadbetter ' would have joined this resident's snake pit, as she was portrayed as a basically decent person - though Felicity Kendal gets my ' vote ' every time - in my dreams anyway...
Supercalifragilistic
expialidocious
expialidocious
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IANAL - but just a thought
I am not a lawyer. However it occured to me that as the representaions made regarding this planning application seem to have been removed from the Mole Valley council website there may have been a proceedural breach which, should this need to go to appeal, could be exploited.
Petiton signed, email on its way to planning.
Petiton signed, email on its way to planning.
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i am a relative latecomer to this thread but i am sooo mad. i will do what ever i can do to help. i will take time to read through the thread properly as that i don't go off half cock and all gung ho and not help the situation. i want to compliment and help not hinder. have been in contact with wonder mum. posted on egoat and like i said there i am incandescant with rage.
there are no words to describe the narrow mindidness ( you know what i mean) of these people. they think that their money will buy them exclusivity in their "private" lane and it cocoons them from the reality of life. if they want exclusivity then let them have it and remove their right to protection from the best armed forces in the world, to the services and amenities we all use. if they don't want to share, then fine let's show them what that means.
there are no words to describe the narrow mindidness ( you know what i mean) of these people. they think that their money will buy them exclusivity in their "private" lane and it cocoons them from the reality of life. if they want exclusivity then let them have it and remove their right to protection from the best armed forces in the world, to the services and amenities we all use. if they don't want to share, then fine let's show them what that means.