It doesn't get much better than this
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TR
If it's more than one you deal with the individuals involved. Even if it's an entire flight/patrol/squadron/whatever, you punish and control them, not merely make life harder for everyone. As I say, an across-the-board tightening is merely lazy discipline.
In honour of Douglas Bader, well said 
Agreed (esp. the bit about Fcuk). So why take away the privilige of stopping and thinking from those who are capable of it? Lazy discipline.
So you agree there are times when civvies are appropriate? Good.
If it's more than one you deal with the individuals involved. Even if it's an entire flight/patrol/squadron/whatever, you punish and control them, not merely make life harder for everyone. As I say, an across-the-board tightening is merely lazy discipline.
I do not flout rules. I apply them with a dash of common sense and practicality, and observe the spirit, if not the word, of the rules.
Call me a prudish... <snip> ...it also takes effort to stop and think.
Wrong. I dress like that primarily to make evening ablutions easier and quicker, and wearing boots in the shower just doesn't work.
Gentlemen,
It seems perverse that someone is insisting on correct dress under operational conditions 'to maintain morale'. I seem to remember a gentleman incorrectly dressed carrying an umbrella at Arnhem, an inspiring character in non-issue pullover called Stirling and a chap in Burma not entirely kitted in stores; all were morale boosting leaders of the highest order. There were many many others I know but History and memory evades me.
Perhaps the luckless jobsworth in the sandpit should think long and hard on how our forebears got sh*tty jobs done well making the best of the grim circumstances.
All the very best to those, both correctly and incorrectly dressed, in the sandpit - stay safe.
FZ
It seems perverse that someone is insisting on correct dress under operational conditions 'to maintain morale'. I seem to remember a gentleman incorrectly dressed carrying an umbrella at Arnhem, an inspiring character in non-issue pullover called Stirling and a chap in Burma not entirely kitted in stores; all were morale boosting leaders of the highest order. There were many many others I know but History and memory evades me.
Perhaps the luckless jobsworth in the sandpit should think long and hard on how our forebears got sh*tty jobs done well making the best of the grim circumstances.
All the very best to those, both correctly and incorrectly dressed, in the sandpit - stay safe.
FZ
Last edited by FantomZorbin; 4th Jul 2007 at 15:24. Reason: spelign
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It seems perverse that someone is insisting on correct dress under operational conditions 'to maintain morale'. I seem to remember a gentleman incorrectly dressed carrying an umbrella at Arnhem, an inspiring character in non-issue pullover called Stirling and a chap in Burma not entirely kitted in stores; all were morale boosting leaders of the highest order. There were many many others I know but History and memory evades me.
The yoof of today on (or is it off?) Ops:
Now can you see the difference?
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I did 4 months at BAS not so long ago, detached to the Army, rather than with the RAF and to be quite honest the sight of RAF people in civvies was not only bad for morale, but also very devisive. To come back in from a couple of days of sightseeing, to first hear the disco music pumping out of the RAF camp, and then to see RAF people bimbling around in their Hawaiian shirts (with obligatory body armour slung over one shoulder) and a can of beer in hand, did nothing to improve my morale or the others on my team. In my mind you are either on Ops or not, and while you are on Ops that is a 24 hour commitment.
Now, I fully expect to get some of you telling me about the need for down time etc, but in my mind this is
. From what I've seen during my time overseas is that there is a 2-tier level of Op going on; those (both green, drak blue and light blue) that go outside the wire, either in the air or by veh, and those that never leave the compounds. Everybody serving out there has a duty to support Ops, and that does not mean taking the opportunity to prance about in civvies at every opportunity. And another thing...I'm not sure what the status is now, but all units should be dry!
Heart-felt rant over!
Bracing myself for the response
Now, I fully expect to get some of you telling me about the need for down time etc, but in my mind this is
. From what I've seen during my time overseas is that there is a 2-tier level of Op going on; those (both green, drak blue and light blue) that go outside the wire, either in the air or by veh, and those that never leave the compounds. Everybody serving out there has a duty to support Ops, and that does not mean taking the opportunity to prance about in civvies at every opportunity. And another thing...I'm not sure what the status is now, but all units should be dry!Heart-felt rant over!
Bracing myself for the response
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Talking Radalt
That'll be a picture of the early SAS while on duty and a picture of a parody of the yoof of today.
Zithro
So you think that we should cater to the lowest common denominator? Or do you think that you and your team would have felt a bit differently if it was about to be you going to get a beer and wind down for a night after a few days sightseeing? I put it to you that it is not the fact that other people can relax, but the fact that you guys can't (i.e. aren't allowed to), which is geting morale down so much. And of course I can see the potential for this to be abused, but like I said: discipline the individual, not the entire unit.
I agree that everyone is there to support ops, but practice bleeding because someone else is outside the wire is pointless. Instead of feeling jealous that others have priviliges, why not enjoy yours while you can? And then put everything your well-rested self can into doing your job well when you do go outside the wire.
That'll be a picture of the early SAS while on duty and a picture of a parody of the yoof of today.
Zithro
So you think that we should cater to the lowest common denominator? Or do you think that you and your team would have felt a bit differently if it was about to be you going to get a beer and wind down for a night after a few days sightseeing? I put it to you that it is not the fact that other people can relax, but the fact that you guys can't (i.e. aren't allowed to), which is geting morale down so much. And of course I can see the potential for this to be abused, but like I said: discipline the individual, not the entire unit.
I agree that everyone is there to support ops, but practice bleeding because someone else is outside the wire is pointless. Instead of feeling jealous that others have priviliges, why not enjoy yours while you can? And then put everything your well-rested self can into doing your job well when you do go outside the wire.
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Shock! Horror! Life in the military found to be serious business!
Amateur Aviator
I would love to be able to say that I sympathise with your lack of opportunity to model some casual wear (even including the range of RAF casual clothing designed for your average 45-yr old Dad) whilst on ops, but I can't.
You're an SH mate. You support the Land Component. You're on ops not an overseas landaway. Ops are demanding and think of the extra capacity this is freeing up for you now you don't have the daily wardrobe dilemma of what to step out in. You might find it divisive that 903 EAW can still wear civvies, so now you know what it's like for the Army when they see us in the Joint environment dressed for the beach rather than looking like we are taking the business seriously. If this really affects your ability to chill out in ECHOS, use the internet to your full ability and restricts your ability to enjoy a meal in between sorties, then perhaps you're holding on too tight.
Uniform to me = being at work and when I'm at home I equate wearing civvies with not worrying about the pressures of ops.
This has to be on a par with the C130 article in the paper which showed the Army how precious we can be.
I know it's hard, but until we restrict ourselves to operations in Ibiza, this is just how it is.
I would love to be able to say that I sympathise with your lack of opportunity to model some casual wear (even including the range of RAF casual clothing designed for your average 45-yr old Dad) whilst on ops, but I can't.
You're an SH mate. You support the Land Component. You're on ops not an overseas landaway. Ops are demanding and think of the extra capacity this is freeing up for you now you don't have the daily wardrobe dilemma of what to step out in. You might find it divisive that 903 EAW can still wear civvies, so now you know what it's like for the Army when they see us in the Joint environment dressed for the beach rather than looking like we are taking the business seriously. If this really affects your ability to chill out in ECHOS, use the internet to your full ability and restricts your ability to enjoy a meal in between sorties, then perhaps you're holding on too tight.
Uniform to me = being at work and when I'm at home I equate wearing civvies with not worrying about the pressures of ops.
This has to be on a par with the C130 article in the paper which showed the Army how precious we can be.
I know it's hard, but until we restrict ourselves to operations in Ibiza, this is just how it is.
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I see the age old "we can't have it so why should they" argument creeping in. Isn't this also used to try and take certain rates off of certain trades too?
Surely rather than moaning and bleating about what others are doing/have got you should be moaning about what you can't do/haven't got, or is that to difficult. Much easier to f up everyones lives eh?
I've been on both sides of the coin and I'd rather everyones standard of living was brought up rather than brought down due to the jealous moaning of a few.
That said though I worked with a complete tit of a chap out in Basrah a few years back who was an 'Emo kid', into his black clothes, make-up and fitting lumps of metal back into holes in his face whenever he could. He ended up squaring up to the acting-SWO (covering for R&R) in the mess one day over some bauble that was dangling out of his eye brow using the defence "well the proper SWO doesn't mind", in front of half of the resident rock squadron and various other RAF personnel. He wasn't the smartest bloke I've ever met and proved it that day.
Surely rather than moaning and bleating about what others are doing/have got you should be moaning about what you can't do/haven't got, or is that to difficult. Much easier to f
up everyones lives eh?I've been on both sides of the coin and I'd rather everyones standard of living was brought up rather than brought down due to the jealous moaning of a few.
That said though I worked with a complete tit of a chap out in Basrah a few years back who was an 'Emo kid', into his black clothes, make-up and fitting lumps of metal back into holes in his face whenever he could. He ended up squaring up to the acting-SWO (covering for R&R) in the mess one day over some bauble that was dangling out of his eye brow using the defence "well the proper SWO doesn't mind", in front of half of the resident rock squadron and various other RAF personnel. He wasn't the smartest bloke I've ever met and proved it that day.
Last edited by The Helpful Stacker; 5th Jul 2007 at 07:12.
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I know it's hard, but until we restrict ourselves to operations in Ibiza, this is just how it is.
All the stuff about supporting the land component is entirely true - nobody is saying we shouldn't do that to the best of our ability. Please explain to me how me wearing a t-shirt and flip-flops when I am relaxing prevents me from doing just that. And I don't want to hear any "it's the military", "you're on ops" or any similarly circular or tenet-based arguments like that.
I wore civvies out there every day in BAS - do you know how much hassle it is trying to co-ordinate ones wardrobe for 6 months when you've only got a few polo shirts? Also not much fun trying to look stylish on repeated helo flights outside the wire and up in the Green Zone - Trust me, give me DPM any day 
I seem to remember Hawkeye and Trapper John wearing Hawaiian shirts, partly to maintain their sanity, without it effecting their operational performance. But of course that was fiction!
The last time I was in Basrah (airfield site) somebody had built a Naafi complex there, partly no doubt to help people relax. Does this mean someone believes relaxing is a good thing, and should be encouraged?
Considering we have another running thread discussing the issues of PTSD, I would have thought that, where possible, positive steps should be being taken to let people unwind, relax and de-stress.
But then I am not of the 'a day out of uniform is a day wasted' school of thought.
The last time I was in Basrah (airfield site) somebody had built a Naafi complex there, partly no doubt to help people relax. Does this mean someone believes relaxing is a good thing, and should be encouraged?
Considering we have another running thread discussing the issues of PTSD, I would have thought that, where possible, positive steps should be being taken to let people unwind, relax and de-stress.
But then I am not of the 'a day out of uniform is a day wasted' school of thought.
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That'll be a picture of the early SAS while on duty and a picture of a parody of the yoof of today.
How do you know they're on ops?
And parodies are usually founded in sharp-eyed observations of the real world, so there has to be an element of truth/fact in them.
And I don't want to hear any "it's the military", "you're on ops"
Actually, it's a fair cop. It's a holiday, it's all a big bloody exercise really, turn up when you like, wear what you want and call everybody "Mate".
In fact, f*ck it, take the rest of the war off.
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Luckily I don't have to wear uniform on Ops! I wear (as many have told me on other threads, a coverall/Mk14 flying suit) so get to change into uniform whilst off duty! (Oh the ayy-run-ey)
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and what do the americans do, they only allow their guys to wear either PT kit or full uniform, seems reasonable.
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PTT
I too do not accept the 'that's just how it is' argument, but I manage to relax whatever clothes I'm wearing and perhaps it is simply an attempt to engender a sense of purpose amongst the Force Elements. There is nothing more divisive than stagging on whilst you watch other elements wandering round dressed for the beach. I am cynical enough about attempts at practice bleeding, but this is simply ensuring that in the work environment we find ourselves in that we don't find massive divides being built up just because we have some precious urge to be able to go around in civvies. If there is any evidence to suggest that PTSD has been brought on by wearing DCC I will be happy to investigate this.
I too do not accept the 'that's just how it is' argument, but I manage to relax whatever clothes I'm wearing and perhaps it is simply an attempt to engender a sense of purpose amongst the Force Elements. There is nothing more divisive than stagging on whilst you watch other elements wandering round dressed for the beach. I am cynical enough about attempts at practice bleeding, but this is simply ensuring that in the work environment we find ourselves in that we don't find massive divides being built up just because we have some precious urge to be able to go around in civvies. If there is any evidence to suggest that PTSD has been brought on by wearing DCC I will be happy to investigate this.
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But that isn't quite the worst part. Apparently 903 EAW have NOT signed up to this ruling. Why can't we be a part of the proper RAF again? Bring back Strike Command. Bring back all the commands. We wear RAF uniforms and RAF rank. We work at RAF stations. We fly RAF, not Army helicopters. It's about time that someone sticks up for us.
Thread Starter
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I give in
Soprano54,
I give in-
BITE
Of course I realise I'm there to support them. You think I don't know that? Every day we put ourselves into harm's way too. Of course it's not quite the same as the boys putting boots on the ground. Everyone takes risks in their own way.
I'll let go now
I give in-
BITE
Of course I realise I'm there to support them. You think I don't know that? Every day we put ourselves into harm's way too. Of course it's not quite the same as the boys putting boots on the ground. Everyone takes risks in their own way.
I'll let go now