New French ICBM
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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New French ICBM
France Test-Fires New Intercontinental Missile
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, LE BOURGET, France
France on June 21 successfully test-fired an intercontinental missile that will be outfitted to its new class of nuclear submarines in 2010, Defence Minister Herve Morin said.
The M51 intercontinental missile was fired from the Biscarosse launch site in the Landes region of southwest France and splashed down in the North Atlantic “far from the American coast,” said a defence ministry official........
Damn!!!! Missed again......
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, LE BOURGET, France
France on June 21 successfully test-fired an intercontinental missile that will be outfitted to its new class of nuclear submarines in 2010, Defence Minister Herve Morin said.
The M51 intercontinental missile was fired from the Biscarosse launch site in the Landes region of southwest France and splashed down in the North Atlantic “far from the American coast,” said a defence ministry official........
Damn!!!! Missed again......
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An airburst warhead loaded with pork should give the bad guys something to think about - preferably followed a little while later by the real thing...
They could always invite Greenpeace to do the honour of releasing it, least they could do - mind you it must have taken real guts to plant a mine on an unarmed ship full of pacifists...
They could always invite Greenpeace to do the honour of releasing it, least they could do - mind you it must have taken real guts to plant a mine on an unarmed ship full of pacifists...
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ICBM
Nope,
not a clue but frog baiting is far more fun.
I lived in Burgundy for a while - distict lack of any pill boxes or anything warlike, except for the remains of bridges the Allies had taken out.
I like the French very much, they know how to live, while we only know how to fight.
When my father was looking after a Sea Harrier at the Farnborough show just after the Falklands, a young American F-16 pilot asked John Farley " are you going to do anything special for us today, John ? "
" Well, put up a couple of froggies & I'll shoot them down for you ! "
At the same show Heinz Frick managed to put dozens of stickers reading " Sea Harrier - actions prove louder than words " - showing a Seajet landing with empty launcher rails - on the flaps of the Mirage, only revealed as he taxied out to take off for his display - the French had a major sense of humour failure, and put a guard on the aircraft after that.
not a clue but frog baiting is far more fun.
I lived in Burgundy for a while - distict lack of any pill boxes or anything warlike, except for the remains of bridges the Allies had taken out.
I like the French very much, they know how to live, while we only know how to fight.
When my father was looking after a Sea Harrier at the Farnborough show just after the Falklands, a young American F-16 pilot asked John Farley " are you going to do anything special for us today, John ? "
" Well, put up a couple of froggies & I'll shoot them down for you ! "
At the same show Heinz Frick managed to put dozens of stickers reading " Sea Harrier - actions prove louder than words " - showing a Seajet landing with empty launcher rails - on the flaps of the Mirage, only revealed as he taxied out to take off for his display - the French had a major sense of humour failure, and put a guard on the aircraft after that.
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ICBM
ORAC,
This is a serious, not mickey taking question;
Is it really worth the crippling cost of the Trident replacement ? No, I'm not a pinko leftie, just wonder if -
A, can we afford it.
B, are such systems really viable ?
Personally from my comfy armchair I might prefer a fair few more Astutes, type 45's, the CVF's ( personally I'd say with F-35B for flexibility ) and even some diesel boats.
I know some modern aircraft can knock out cruise missiles now, so Tomahawk might not be 100% infallible, but it's still a major threat to bad guys - and we're much more likely to use it with conventional warheads anyway.
New kit coming along ( both in space, aircraft fired, undersea survelliance radar & other systems ) seems to say the same about ICBM's and indeed the hiding ability of their subs... ?
I might be tempted to extend the Vanguard class longevity, add a fair bit more kit to our forces, and bung any change into the NHS ?
This is a serious, not mickey taking question;
Is it really worth the crippling cost of the Trident replacement ? No, I'm not a pinko leftie, just wonder if -
A, can we afford it.
B, are such systems really viable ?
Personally from my comfy armchair I might prefer a fair few more Astutes, type 45's, the CVF's ( personally I'd say with F-35B for flexibility ) and even some diesel boats.
I know some modern aircraft can knock out cruise missiles now, so Tomahawk might not be 100% infallible, but it's still a major threat to bad guys - and we're much more likely to use it with conventional warheads anyway.
New kit coming along ( both in space, aircraft fired, undersea survelliance radar & other systems ) seems to say the same about ICBM's and indeed the hiding ability of their subs... ?
I might be tempted to extend the Vanguard class longevity, add a fair bit more kit to our forces, and bung any change into the NHS ?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
A. Can we afford it? yes, over the life of the system the cost is a tiny fraction of GDP.
B. Are such systems viable? Yes. ALCMs are now vulnerable, IRBM defences are being worked on, but MIRV ICBMs are, and in the life time of this system will remain, effective.
The unasked third and fourth questions are whether the money could, if made available for defence outside a deterrent programme, be more effectively spent - and whether a strategic defensive weapon is actually credible.
You won't get an agreement on this subject. Many will say that, even during the Cold War, the strategic deterrent was a waste of money. MAD never worked etc.
Such arguments are above my level. If you had asked me 5 years ago I would have said we did not need it. With the re-emergence of Russia as a potential threat, the increasing growth of the Chinese military, former third world nations, such as India, entering into the first tier as nuclear missile equipped next generation superpowers - I think we should hold onto the capability.
The Astute debacle has lead to the acceptance that the cost of stopping work for a generation means either a total loss of the capability or crippling costs to regain it. Better never to lose it.
B. Are such systems viable? Yes. ALCMs are now vulnerable, IRBM defences are being worked on, but MIRV ICBMs are, and in the life time of this system will remain, effective.
The unasked third and fourth questions are whether the money could, if made available for defence outside a deterrent programme, be more effectively spent - and whether a strategic defensive weapon is actually credible.
You won't get an agreement on this subject. Many will say that, even during the Cold War, the strategic deterrent was a waste of money. MAD never worked etc.
Such arguments are above my level. If you had asked me 5 years ago I would have said we did not need it. With the re-emergence of Russia as a potential threat, the increasing growth of the Chinese military, former third world nations, such as India, entering into the first tier as nuclear missile equipped next generation superpowers - I think we should hold onto the capability.
The Astute debacle has lead to the acceptance that the cost of stopping work for a generation means either a total loss of the capability or crippling costs to regain it. Better never to lose it.
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ICBM
ORAC,
Thanks for replying - I know exactly what you mean about 'skills lost' but wonder if this is not down to a single source ?!
I worked at Dunsfold alongside people who had been aircraft designers all their lives, covering everything from Concorde, Gnat, Hunter, Fury, Fairey Delta 2 etc etc to TSR2 and all...
In the earliest films of the 1st prototype 'Harrier' ( P1127 XP831 ) hovering for the first time, are the same faces I was honoured to work with over 30 years later !
Under late BAe 'management' the design liaison team were all made redundant at short notice, " no longer required ".
I left as I was told no development work would happen again - now I happen to know they're trying to work out how to use ' my ' camera pods out of storage, and though clueless, would rather shoot their own whippets than use someone like me.
There happens to be quite a safety issue in using that kit too, but it seems they're willing to go through the same learning curve again & tough on anyone below.
A month after the pool of design liasion talent & experience had gone, some in quite distressing circumstances re. age & chances of re-employment, BAe hired a bunch of freelance designers on short term contracts.
Last week designing fridges, this week Harriers !
There, I suggest, lies the problem ! The experience & knowledge is still out there, but only just - you're quite right in saying we need to keep it, be it with aircraft or ships, but how we go about it apart from detailed memoirs I'm not sure !
DZ
Thanks for replying - I know exactly what you mean about 'skills lost' but wonder if this is not down to a single source ?!
I worked at Dunsfold alongside people who had been aircraft designers all their lives, covering everything from Concorde, Gnat, Hunter, Fury, Fairey Delta 2 etc etc to TSR2 and all...
In the earliest films of the 1st prototype 'Harrier' ( P1127 XP831 ) hovering for the first time, are the same faces I was honoured to work with over 30 years later !
Under late BAe 'management' the design liaison team were all made redundant at short notice, " no longer required ".
I left as I was told no development work would happen again - now I happen to know they're trying to work out how to use ' my ' camera pods out of storage, and though clueless, would rather shoot their own whippets than use someone like me.
There happens to be quite a safety issue in using that kit too, but it seems they're willing to go through the same learning curve again & tough on anyone below.
A month after the pool of design liasion talent & experience had gone, some in quite distressing circumstances re. age & chances of re-employment, BAe hired a bunch of freelance designers on short term contracts.
Last week designing fridges, this week Harriers !
There, I suggest, lies the problem ! The experience & knowledge is still out there, but only just - you're quite right in saying we need to keep it, be it with aircraft or ships, but how we go about it apart from detailed memoirs I'm not sure !
DZ
DZ
We just about have the skills left in Sub/Ship design, although the CVF, LPD and LSD(A) shenanigans demonstrate just how easy it is to go wrong. I would have thought that the situation in aircraft design is substantially worse - particularly for the early stage concept / feasibility design stages, which are all about getting the end-product in the right ballpark. The last aircraft I can remember being all-UK design was the EAP in the early-80s, which I thought originated in Salmesbury. Since then I suppose it's all been collaborative - same goes for the rotorheads.
Your point re freelance "designers" resonates exactly with the LPD experience. The shipyard needed CAD-monkeys which were in very short (and expensive) supply and instead got a bunch of civil eng / architects in who knew just enough to be dangerous. Hence the entire HV system being equipped at IP23, when naval firefighting uses LOTS of saltwater. OOPs. Expensive design mod followed.....
We just about have the skills left in Sub/Ship design, although the CVF, LPD and LSD(A) shenanigans demonstrate just how easy it is to go wrong. I would have thought that the situation in aircraft design is substantially worse - particularly for the early stage concept / feasibility design stages, which are all about getting the end-product in the right ballpark. The last aircraft I can remember being all-UK design was the EAP in the early-80s, which I thought originated in Salmesbury. Since then I suppose it's all been collaborative - same goes for the rotorheads.
Your point re freelance "designers" resonates exactly with the LPD experience. The shipyard needed CAD-monkeys which were in very short (and expensive) supply and instead got a bunch of civil eng / architects in who knew just enough to be dangerous. Hence the entire HV system being equipped at IP23, when naval firefighting uses LOTS of saltwater. OOPs. Expensive design mod followed.....
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Originally Posted by Double Zero
I might be tempted to extend the Vanguard class longevity, add a fair bit more kit to our forces, and bung any change into the NHS ?
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AFAIK Britain never has designed an indigenous military ICBM, Blue Streak being an IRBM. I suppose the Black Arrow project could be considered an ICBM system despite its successful use as a satellite launcher.
The UK is the only country ever to have developed an indigenous orbital space launch capability and then binned it.
I remember wandering round the old Blue Streak rocket test stands still on the range at Spade wondering what might have been...
The UK is the only country ever to have developed an indigenous orbital space launch capability and then binned it.
I remember wandering round the old Blue Streak rocket test stands still on the range at Spade wondering what might have been...
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Black Arrow
Slight thread drift which I hope may be excused;
a chum worked on the Woomera end of the Black Arrow tests.
Two things I recall him mentioning; it took ages of pondering, and a great deal of money, to design heat-shield tiles for the concrete launch pad.
On launch, the tiles blew off, and the concrete sat there untouched...
Also, when figuring out where to place the cameras to record the impact, any designer will tell you there's a CEP so 'logic' dictates you place the cameras dead-centre of target - guess what ?!!!
Rather more seriously ORAC, I agree about certain emerging / re-emerging superpowers, though I can't help worry the snag is they know we almost certainly wouldn't nuke them, while they might not be so hesitant...
a chum worked on the Woomera end of the Black Arrow tests.
Two things I recall him mentioning; it took ages of pondering, and a great deal of money, to design heat-shield tiles for the concrete launch pad.
On launch, the tiles blew off, and the concrete sat there untouched...
Also, when figuring out where to place the cameras to record the impact, any designer will tell you there's a CEP so 'logic' dictates you place the cameras dead-centre of target - guess what ?!!!
Rather more seriously ORAC, I agree about certain emerging / re-emerging superpowers, though I can't help worry the snag is they know we almost certainly wouldn't nuke them, while they might not be so hesitant...
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Now that we are all Europeans, would it not be a good idea to buy our next genration ICBMs from the French rather than the Yanks? At least the instruction manuals would be in decent English!
