Sky Live Debate the Need For An Independent Air Force
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Sky Live Debate the Need For An Independent Air Force
Date for your diaries ladies and gentlemen:
SKY LIVE DEBATE 16 JUN 07 – THE NEED FOR AN INDEPENDENT AIR FORCE
a. DTG. Approx 1700 Sat, 16 Jun 07.
b. Title. ‘In the current fiscal climate, there is no need for an Independent Air Force’
c. Proposing. Lt Col (Rtd)Tim Collins.
d. Opposing. Gp Capt Al Lockwood.
SKY LIVE DEBATE 16 JUN 07 – THE NEED FOR AN INDEPENDENT AIR FORCE
a. DTG. Approx 1700 Sat, 16 Jun 07.
b. Title. ‘In the current fiscal climate, there is no need for an Independent Air Force’
c. Proposing. Lt Col (Rtd)Tim Collins.
d. Opposing. Gp Capt Al Lockwood.
Last edited by Wader2; 14th Jun 2007 at 13:25. Reason: correct original typo in title (not mine)
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The title itself is a nonsense. Since when was a need dependent upon a fiscal climate?
Has Tim Collins got a new book out or is he still trying to push his 'private airforce' idea?
I wonder if Al Lockwood will profer the alternative view that in the current fiscal climate it's inefficient to have three separate air forces? And then argue that if having triplication is unwise, duplication is similarly inefficient, so for max efficiency putting all air power under the command of a single service would represent major cost savings, which is what the Colonel wishes to achieve....
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Careful 'Archmedes', thats crazy talk. I mean what kind of world would it be where it made sense for the Royal Air Force to control all the air assets of the UK's Armed Forces?
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THS,
Based on what I have read in another thread about being butt fecked by their Lords and Masters over pay I suspect a huge swathe of AAC Pilots would jump at the chance to join us in the Royal Air Force
After all to be a pilot in the RAF you need to be commissioned so they all become instant Royal's, no pay cap at level 22 for PAS, better pensions, better quality of life etc etc etc
I think Archimedes may be onto something here.......
Based on what I have read in another thread about being butt fecked by their Lords and Masters over pay I suspect a huge swathe of AAC Pilots would jump at the chance to join us in the Royal Air Force
After all to be a pilot in the RAF you need to be commissioned so they all become instant Royal's, no pay cap at level 22 for PAS, better pensions, better quality of life etc etc etc
I think Archimedes may be onto something here.......
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Perhaps, we could all join up after all. In naming the resultant Service we should take a word from each of the three existing Armed Forces: "Royal" from us, "Army" from the squaddies and perhaps, "Fleet" from the navy. In every day use the Service would be abbreviated to "RAF"; gets my vote....
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After all to be a pilot in the RAF you need to be commissioned
Seldonfitforpurpose...,
That may be the case at present, but considering RAF history..., it was not that long ago that we had SNCO aircrew..., so no real arguement against introducing that role again for ex AAC helicopter crews.... !!!
Gengis
That may be the case at present, but considering RAF history..., it was not that long ago that we had SNCO aircrew..., so no real arguement against introducing that role again for ex AAC helicopter crews.... !!!
Gengis
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I wish Tim Collins would just disappear up his own hoop. Big respect for him in GW2, but in his new RAF-bashing, media rentagob role, trading on his own name, he's a right pain in the tits. He has a typically green army understanding of air power (ie f all) and a damn big mouth. Not a good combination.
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It obviously goes far deeper than who has ownership over the UK's aircraft. The army has no, or very few, airspace battle management SMEs & as a result, they have Fighter Controllers working with them in quite a few areas, helping army folk understand caps & lims of CAS etc etc.
Should the RAF merge with the army, the emphasis would move away from air power & those of us who were 'ex RAF' would certainly be looked upon as 2nd class personnel.
Not sure if I would go the other way and take the a/c away from the army mind, they seem to be doing a bloody good job with the Apache.
Should the RAF merge with the army, the emphasis would move away from air power & those of us who were 'ex RAF' would certainly be looked upon as 2nd class personnel.
Not sure if I would go the other way and take the a/c away from the army mind, they seem to be doing a bloody good job with the Apache.
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I remember reading sometime ago that this was seriously considered shortly before WW2... what a mistake that would have been .
Although it sounds cheesy, history always repeats itself at some point
, to remove the air force as an independant body would be a huge mistake.
.Although it sounds cheesy, history always repeats itself at some point
, to remove the air force as an independant body would be a huge mistake.
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The army is doing a fantastic job with the Apache considering the lack of spares and manpower however; these are issues affecting every helicopter fleet. The only down side is the 'green' army still and will never understand airpower, airspace management because that is not there job. An independent airforce should not be governed by fiscal rulings, especially when fighting two wars!!!!!!
I have to take my hat off to Tim Collins. He's good - in fact he's almost as good as he thinks he is. But when it comes to actually understanding the RAF and what it does, then I suspect there is a big gap between what he thinks he knows and what he actually understands.
So we disband the RAF and give it over to the Army & Navy. And of course the AT situation will miraculously improve over night. 'Dave' won't be put back several years, the Kipper fleet won't have all the problems it's having and the SH fleet will actually get some proper well thought out and targeted investment. And all that just by changing cap badges ..... quick someone pass me a Gems form
What passes for understanding of the RAF and airpower - more so in the Army than the RN - is quite frankly frightening. I remember sitting through an ISTAR lecture given by an Army WO1 ISTAR "expert" and I shall use that word in the loosest sense of its meaning. He went on for the best part of an hour on formation recce, troops being dug into OPs miles from anywhere for weeks at a time and the high tech Phoenix UAV which was going to solve all our problems. As we got towards the end, he went on to what the RAF bring to the ISTAR party - a single photo of an E3 and "oh yes and the RAF have a few of these things" and that was it. And that was from an "expert" - god only knows what the rest of the army know / understand about RAF ops. That has, unfortunately only been reinforced by recent experiences out in the sandpit.
The fact that having been already formed almost 30 years before the Americans took our lead in setting up their own independent air force should also surely make the point that in this case, he is completely wrong. God, even the Belgians have their own independent air force having split it off from the Army in 1946. First of all the Navy compare our Fleet to the Belgian Navy and now Collins thinks we should take a step backwards to something even the Belgians realised could be done better as an independent force.
Collins needs to climb down from his own arse and realise that the RAF isn't the enemy - the politicians, bean counters and yes-men are. Instead of spouting his ill informed drivel, based on what evidence I'm not sure, the better. Instead, the motion should be "In this current fiscal climate, the country can no longer afford this government".
So we disband the RAF and give it over to the Army & Navy. And of course the AT situation will miraculously improve over night. 'Dave' won't be put back several years, the Kipper fleet won't have all the problems it's having and the SH fleet will actually get some proper well thought out and targeted investment. And all that just by changing cap badges ..... quick someone pass me a Gems form
What passes for understanding of the RAF and airpower - more so in the Army than the RN - is quite frankly frightening. I remember sitting through an ISTAR lecture given by an Army WO1 ISTAR "expert" and I shall use that word in the loosest sense of its meaning. He went on for the best part of an hour on formation recce, troops being dug into OPs miles from anywhere for weeks at a time and the high tech Phoenix UAV which was going to solve all our problems. As we got towards the end, he went on to what the RAF bring to the ISTAR party - a single photo of an E3 and "oh yes and the RAF have a few of these things" and that was it. And that was from an "expert" - god only knows what the rest of the army know / understand about RAF ops. That has, unfortunately only been reinforced by recent experiences out in the sandpit.
The fact that having been already formed almost 30 years before the Americans took our lead in setting up their own independent air force should also surely make the point that in this case, he is completely wrong. God, even the Belgians have their own independent air force having split it off from the Army in 1946. First of all the Navy compare our Fleet to the Belgian Navy and now Collins thinks we should take a step backwards to something even the Belgians realised could be done better as an independent force.
Collins needs to climb down from his own arse and realise that the RAF isn't the enemy - the politicians, bean counters and yes-men are. Instead of spouting his ill informed drivel, based on what evidence I'm not sure, the better. Instead, the motion should be "In this current fiscal climate, the country can no longer afford this government".
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Actually while the Sky plan is to put Tim Collins up as proposer there is some doubt that he will actually do the job.
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GengisKhant wrote...
Spot on Gengis, it wasn't that long ago at all that we had "SNCO aircrew" - we have them NOW 
MadMark!!!
That may be the case at present, but considering RAF history..., it was not that long ago that we had SNCO aircrew...
MadMark!!!
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The answer is yes we still need 3 independent services but do they need duplicate things as much as we do? could alot of the Logistic tails be merged?
Do Veicles supporting an RAF station/squadron need to be maintained by RAF VM's or could REME do it just as effectivley? Do AAC helecptors need to be maintained by REME personell or cold that be done By RAF. Do we need 3 seperate service police forces? If RAF Regt is so keen to play soldiers would they not be better being a Land asset? Same with the Royal marines?
Do Veicles supporting an RAF station/squadron need to be maintained by RAF VM's or could REME do it just as effectivley? Do AAC helecptors need to be maintained by REME personell or cold that be done By RAF. Do we need 3 seperate service police forces? If RAF Regt is so keen to play soldiers would they not be better being a Land asset? Same with the Royal marines?
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Al Lockwood?? Pardon my memory loss but after four years back in civvy street my memory isn't what is was. Al Lockwood? Is that the guy who was OC RAF Thumrait circa 2002/2003???
TG
TG
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The Gorilla, yes indeed.
His CV has changed somewhat since then.
He was the face of the RAF and British Forces during GW2. Then he was the prospective conservative party candidate at the recent general election for Sedgefield (North?). Most recently he was third in the local council elections having been beaten by two independent candidates.
Seeing him pushing leaflets through letter boxes while wearing a check shirt and kharki shorts was quite up lifting
His CV has changed somewhat since then.
He was the face of the RAF and British Forces during GW2. Then he was the prospective conservative party candidate at the recent general election for Sedgefield (North?). Most recently he was third in the local council elections having been beaten by two independent candidates.
Seeing him pushing leaflets through letter boxes while wearing a check shirt and kharki shorts was quite up lifting
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Pontius
Thank you I will give it a miss, you forget the bad things and only remember the good. Which is why I couldn't remember, this is the same Group Capt who was formerly an Air Commode before ooops becoming a Group Captain again!!!
Thank you I will give it a miss, you forget the bad things and only remember the good. Which is why I couldn't remember, this is the same Group Capt who was formerly an Air Commode before ooops becoming a Group Captain again!!!