Red Arrows-Cosford TRA Infingements
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If you want to see the best team in the world, look south to the Patrouille de France. Admittedly, I have not seen their 2007 show, but they have consistently struck me over the last 10 years as being far better than anyone else - dynamic, flown with finesse, and incorporating elements that no other teams can claim to have an equivalent to.
I've seen hundreds of Arrows displays since 1970 and I've seen the Angels, Frecce, Patrouille, and most of the others on more than a dozen occasions each - and, yes, I've seen the PdF 2007 'display'.
BUT, I have never in all those years seen any other team (apart from the Reds) be so adaptable as to be able to change the display (sometimes more than three or four times) mid-way through the display. All the others, even the Yanks, call-in and bu**er off back home if it's anything but CAVOK.
The Arrows? They get on with it, change the display to suit and don't let the crowd down unless it really is pea-soup viz.
Now, that's professionalism, dedication and a competency of training far in excess of anything the other also-rans can dream of. They are also considerably more PR-orientated than the Frenchies (who seem to stick there noses in the air and waltz by) or the Frecce (who spend half their meet-and-greet time checking their hair in the reflection of each others shades). And don't even get me started on the Yanks' fly-boys... jumped up ego-jockeys doesn't even begin to describe it.
As to those on here spouting off about 'why special treatment for the Reds?' - well, it isn't... it's just called 'The Law' and a RA(T) infringement is prosecuted to the same extent than any other one. It's just more planes involved, and Red 1 did absolutely the right thing. Nine jets at 300 kts going into each other (because some idiot didn't read the clubhouse boards that morning) or then into the crowd... well, people just need to remember Ramstein to even contemplate that.
So, do the Arrows-haters want all airshows banned in the UK becuase some pr*t causes a major catastophe? Because that is what would be likely, at least for some years... and then there would be nothing, not even the Eagles or the other teams that the Arrows-knockers think are better.
BTW, can any of the knockers can fly any of the Hawks to a higher level of expertise? Thought not!
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XR537.
Pr-orientated
Don't make me laugh.
I will gladly accept that their flying is as good as any out there.
I personally don't think the choreography is as good as the PdF or Tricolunacy, but that is just my opinion.
What does let them down, however, is that due to their attitude to other mil pilots, "Hi, I'm red 1" etc, everybody else tells the public that they are tw@ts. Not good pr
Pr-orientated
Don't make me laugh.I will gladly accept that their flying is as good as any out there.
I personally don't think the choreography is as good as the PdF or Tricolunacy, but that is just my opinion.
What does let them down, however, is that due to their attitude to other mil pilots, "Hi, I'm red 1" etc, everybody else tells the public that they are tw@ts. Not good pr
Fly Conventional Gear
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I friend of mine recently spent a week with the Red Arrows in Cyprus doing 'work experience' (not bad for a cadet), got two flights in the back and came away thinking they were a group of highly trained and professional individuals who do a great job. Tourist you say that they behave badly towards other pilots, which I have to say does make me feel rather disappointed in them but I rather doubt it is indicative of the Red Arrows' attitude in general.
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What does let them down, however, is that due to their attitude to other mil pilots, "Hi, I'm red 1" etc, everybody else tells the public that they are tw@ts. Not good pr
Having personally met them on more occasions than I can remember (both on bases/airports and at their own HQs), and having taken many groups of children to meet them (often those under-priveleged or with life-limiting problems) I have NEVER EVER had any Red Arrows pilot introduce himself (or herself in the case of the last three team managers) as "I'm Red #" - that has got to be the biggest load of made up clapt**p I've seen on this forum for a long time.
In all those years, it has always been "Hello, [firstname] [surname]... good to meet you" or similar, NEVER by their call sign. The only time I have ever heard them use their call signs is in pre-flight briefings, de-briefings or on the radio - as it should be. And I've socialised with a good number of them on a casual basis too over the years, and I've never heard call signs used in social situations as an introduction.
The PdF and Freakin' Tricky-O-Lordy (as they are known by the sensible pilots of the World) are so up their own backsides with their ego's, it's a wonder they fit in their cockpits.
But, my main argument is still this... How many other teams can vary the display - no matter what changes - to keep the crowd happy? Answer= None.
If it starts raining in France, the PdF fly home because they don't want to get their paintwork (or hair) wet.
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Tourist
You are talking cr@p. I take it you have either a. never spent any time in their company or b. not made the shortlist on application. I did not make the shortlist when I applied but the day spent with the team prior to application was a top day out. When you fly with them you get to see just how hard they are working and learn to appreciate the skill involved. On that day every one of them flew 3 times, had a number of niff naff triv jobs to do, plus had to meet and host numerous arb visitors to the Sqn. To a man they carried out their work with complete professionalism and made the visitors feel welcome and special.
Your comments are ignorant.
GnP.
You are talking cr@p. I take it you have either a. never spent any time in their company or b. not made the shortlist on application. I did not make the shortlist when I applied but the day spent with the team prior to application was a top day out. When you fly with them you get to see just how hard they are working and learn to appreciate the skill involved. On that day every one of them flew 3 times, had a number of niff naff triv jobs to do, plus had to meet and host numerous arb visitors to the Sqn. To a man they carried out their work with complete professionalism and made the visitors feel welcome and special.
Your comments are ignorant.
GnP.
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Tut tut tut Gents,
I'm sorry to see you bite at Tourists fishing line.
Let us not forget that he is a bit of a k
ber, with a hint of arrogance thrown in for good measure! 
Any team run by JH will have no time for ego, arrogance or bravado.
Jas is a top fella, a pro & his team follow suit.
I'm sorry to see you bite at Tourists fishing line.
Let us not forget that he is a bit of a k
ber, with a hint of arrogance thrown in for good measure! Any team run by JH will have no time for ego, arrogance or bravado.
Jas is a top fella, a pro & his team follow suit.
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For Information:
You don't need a licence for a Powered foot launched Hanglider, or for a Powered foot launched Paraglider.
Neither do you need a Medical Licence or Radio Licence.
Beats me.
Regards Cron.
You don't need a licence for a Powered foot launched Hanglider, or for a Powered foot launched Paraglider.
Neither do you need a Medical Licence or Radio Licence.
Beats me.
Regards Cron.
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Maybe other places could take a leaf out of Halfpenny Green's book. On Friday the FISO went to every school on the airfield and explained the details to everyone. Saturday and Sunday saw a big notice on HGFC's "Important Notices" board (I can't speak for the other schools) with very specific warnings about times and headings when and where it was advisable not to fly. All aircraft, from all schools, were (voluntarily) on the ground or well out of the way during the appropriate times and especially when The Red Arrows were forming in EGBO's overhead. The reward was a fly-through the overhead when the second display had to be cancelled. I wasn't around 
I don't suppose there is any chance of a repeat fly-through when I'm there? 
(Don't worry, much as I would like to have seen them, I AM joking.) 
I don't suppose there is any chance of a repeat fly-through when I'm there? (Don't worry, much as I would like to have seen them, I AM joking.)
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Tourist,
You are a complete idiot, and frankly a liar!
I don't believe you (or anyone else for that matter) has heard a member of the team come up to them or anyone and say 'Hi, I'm Red whatever' you're talking crap.
I know all of the team, both professionally and socially. I have been with them at seceral corportae events aswell as at airshows when they have met the public. You are so utterly wrong.
Their flying isn't as good as anyone elses - its far better! Its better than mine, and if you ask any BritMil pilot he will tell you the same. The same applies to the USAF T'Birds. I had a few days with them last year, and their 'aim' is to be as 'sharp as the RAF Red Arrows' and thats from the team themselves. So wake up Tourist, we have the very best in the Arrows.
And as for your comment about 'their' views of other Military pilots - even more trash. They all come from an operational squadron with years of squadron life behind them, why do you think they would suddenly turn their backs on all their old squadron mates??
As for the infringement, the idiots in the microlights need taking to one side and putting back through the training system again, because they clearly missed the lesson on NOTAMS. I hope that the CAA deal with them severly. A mistake is one thing, ignorance and stupidity is another, especially when peoples lives are at stake.
You do talk a load of rubbish Tourist.
TSM
You are a complete idiot, and frankly a liar!
I don't believe you (or anyone else for that matter) has heard a member of the team come up to them or anyone and say 'Hi, I'm Red whatever' you're talking crap.
I know all of the team, both professionally and socially. I have been with them at seceral corportae events aswell as at airshows when they have met the public. You are so utterly wrong.
Their flying isn't as good as anyone elses - its far better! Its better than mine, and if you ask any BritMil pilot he will tell you the same. The same applies to the USAF T'Birds. I had a few days with them last year, and their 'aim' is to be as 'sharp as the RAF Red Arrows' and thats from the team themselves. So wake up Tourist, we have the very best in the Arrows.
And as for your comment about 'their' views of other Military pilots - even more trash. They all come from an operational squadron with years of squadron life behind them, why do you think they would suddenly turn their backs on all their old squadron mates??
As for the infringement, the idiots in the microlights need taking to one side and putting back through the training system again, because they clearly missed the lesson on NOTAMS. I hope that the CAA deal with them severly. A mistake is one thing, ignorance and stupidity is another, especially when peoples lives are at stake.
You do talk a load of rubbish Tourist.
TSM
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Tourist
Despite yourself you have performed a valuable service for which I, for one, thank you.
By spouting your spiteful and inaccurate crap you have provoked those who, unlike you, know what they are talking about to come to the defence of the Reds. Not before time too.
The team have not been treated well on this forum in the past. I can only put this down to ignorance and envy. They are truly the best display team and the best of guys. They set the standard. We should ALL, and especially those of you associated with the RAF, be proud of their professionalism and the positive image of the RAF, our armed forces and our country which they portray. Thank God we have something left to be proud of.
Despite yourself you have performed a valuable service for which I, for one, thank you.
By spouting your spiteful and inaccurate crap you have provoked those who, unlike you, know what they are talking about to come to the defence of the Reds. Not before time too.
The team have not been treated well on this forum in the past. I can only put this down to ignorance and envy. They are truly the best display team and the best of guys. They set the standard. We should ALL, and especially those of you associated with the RAF, be proud of their professionalism and the positive image of the RAF, our armed forces and our country which they portray. Thank God we have something left to be proud of.
XR537 wrote:
I accept that flexibility is an important thing in climates like we have in the UK, but for most of the rest of the world, it's far less of a limfac. As such, it's not high on my 'clapometer' for display teams. Personally, I would prefer to see a single display that is better choreographed and flown, than a team that is less impressive but more flexible when the wx comes down.
I spent a week in Cyprus and flew with the Reds, so I am well aware that they have a good attitude towards PR. But from a spectator's perspective, that's unlikely to make the jaw drop and is not one of the criteria that I would use to grade the team's display flying.
This comment shows the same amount of ignorance as Tourist's comments about the Reds.
It's great that you have pride in your country's team, but to disparage other nationalities and teams like this is reflects poorly on us all.
FTR, I am friends with one serving T-Clone pilot, and he is the nicest, non-egotistical guy that you could hope to meet. I knew him before he joined the team, flew in the back of his Viper, even, and he's just as down to earth now as then. Just as the current Reds are, no doubt.
You talk about someone else's claptrap; well, people in glass houses...
BUT, I have never in all those years seen any other team (apart from the Reds) be so adaptable as to be able to change the display (sometimes more than three or four times) mid-way through the display.
They are also considerably more PR-orientated than the Frenchies...
And don't even get me started on the Yanks' fly-boys... jumped up ego-jockeys doesn't even begin to describe it
It's great that you have pride in your country's team, but to disparage other nationalities and teams like this is reflects poorly on us all.
FTR, I am friends with one serving T-Clone pilot, and he is the nicest, non-egotistical guy that you could hope to meet. I knew him before he joined the team, flew in the back of his Viper, even, and he's just as down to earth now as then. Just as the current Reds are, no doubt.
You talk about someone else's claptrap; well, people in glass houses...
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Ewan Whosearmy wrote:
I think the majority of the great-British ticket-paying public would rather some 'a' display rather than no display.
Then they are doing their job - PR and flying the flag are two of the most important roles they perform, the display is a means to that end.
The Reds aren't there to impress military pilots (i.e. the ones that are already in the forces - the recruitment ads have already worked on them) - one of the main roles is to display, show what we in Britain can still beat the World at, and hopefully make some of the younger audience members think about picking up a bone-dome/spanner/nav chart/radar headset/etc. as a future career.
And if the display doesn't go ahead, then that doesn't happen, and the youngsters/cadets there are not there to pick over the finer detail.
That's great that you know someone who is down to earth... however, I have long-lasting memories of the US team dissing the Arrows during a US tour in the 80's with comments like "we knock these guys out the blue"... and then shutting up, when the commentator gave a few stats on just how close Apollo is flown.
Maybe, they have matured... that's good to hear.
Tombstone wrote:
Absolutely... Jas will, I believe, prove to be one of the best leaders in the history of the team. Not only is he always so accomodating to the public, I've never seen a flicker of ego about him, from when he was in the team to his current role as Boss. He had good bosses in the form of Offo and Spike when he flew for them, and he continues that sense of level-headedness in what is one of the most coveted jobs in aviation.
Clockwork Mouse wrote:
Couldn't have put it better myself... "ignorance and envy".
It's bad enough seeing the element of British-bashing luvvies having a go at anything we do well in this country, let alone reading 'comrades in arms' having a pop at their own ambassadors... that is quite inbelievable behaviour.
Maybe Tourist just has a chip on his epaulettes (I might be wrong, but the text so far doesn't bode well)... and such negative attitude wouldn't go down well in any selection process. Ho hum.
Personally, I would prefer to see a single display that is better choreographed and flown, than a team that is less impressive but more flexible when the wx comes down.
I spent a week in Cyprus and flew with the Reds, so I am well aware that they have a good attitude towards PR. But from a spectator's perspective, that's unlikely to make the jaw drop and is not one of the criteria that I would use to grade the team's display flying.
The Reds aren't there to impress military pilots (i.e. the ones that are already in the forces - the recruitment ads have already worked on them) - one of the main roles is to display, show what we in Britain can still beat the World at, and hopefully make some of the younger audience members think about picking up a bone-dome/spanner/nav chart/radar headset/etc. as a future career.
And if the display doesn't go ahead, then that doesn't happen, and the youngsters/cadets there are not there to pick over the finer detail.
FTR, I am friends with one serving T-Clone pilot, and he is the nicest, non-egotistical guy that you could hope to meet. I knew him before he joined the team, flew in the back of his Viper, even, and he's just as down to earth now as then.
Maybe, they have matured... that's good to hear.
Tombstone wrote:
Any team run by JH will have no time for ego, arrogance or bravado.
Jas is a top fella, a pro & his team follow suit.
Jas is a top fella, a pro & his team follow suit.
Clockwork Mouse wrote:
The team have not been treated well on this forum in the past. I can only put this down to ignorance and envy. They are truly the best display team and the best of guys. They set the standard. We should ALL, and especially those of you associated with the RAF, be proud of their professionalism and the positive image of the RAF, our armed forces and our country which they portray. Thank God we have something left to be proud of.
It's bad enough seeing the element of British-bashing luvvies having a go at anything we do well in this country, let alone reading 'comrades in arms' having a pop at their own ambassadors... that is quite inbelievable behaviour.
Maybe Tourist just has a chip on his epaulettes (I might be wrong, but the text so far doesn't bode well)... and such negative attitude wouldn't go down well in any selection process. Ho hum.
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You are a complete idiot, and frankly a liar!
I don't believe you (or anyone else for that matter) has heard a member of the team come up to them or anyone and say 'Hi, I'm Red whatever' you're talking crap.
I don't believe you (or anyone else for that matter) has heard a member of the team come up to them or anyone and say 'Hi, I'm Red whatever' you're talking crap.
“Hi Red 5 pleased to meet you"
New Plt Off, quick as a flash, thrusts out his hand "talk down 2 - pleased to meet you"
Small harrumph from Red suited pilot and hysterics from all those in ear shot.
Oh, and I don't lie - Mum told me not to!
Fred
Originally Posted by XR537
All the others, even the Yanks, call-in and bu**er off back home if it's anything but CAVOK.
The Arrows? They get on with it, change the display to suit and don't let the crowd down unless it really is pea-soup viz.
The Arrows? They get on with it, change the display to suit and don't let the crowd down unless it really is pea-soup viz.
I've also seen most of the world's team, from Europe, the America's and even the Japanese.......and I still think the Reds are at the top of the current pile, although I do have a soft spot for the Suisse and the mad Italians.....
Best though.........for me, still the Black Arrows......
Have to agree, superb skills and in general a nice bunch of blokes over the years but why oh why the embarrassing RT?
Had a couple of trips in the back and felt like reaching for the handle after every check in!
Had a couple of trips in the back and felt like reaching for the handle after every check in!
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Under Investigation
You may be interested to know that the RAT infringement at Cosford is now the subject of an RAF investigation. I anticipate that a Safety regulatory Group investigation will also be opened.
It is not helpful for members of Pprune to call for the 'hanging' of the motor glider pilot. If he/she is reading this, he is now unlikely to submit an open and honest report into the incident. That hampers the investigation, although we will probably trace the ac through our (very good) radar tracing people.
All investigations culminate in 'appropriate' action being taken. A negligent act can attract a hefty fine and in rare cases, jail. However, genuine mistakes/lapses/errors are usually dealt with at a much lower level - maybe a formal letter to the CFI. Many GA pilots talk to ATC on the phone shortly after their infringement and the issue is resolved at a 'local' level. In my experience, this is effective - not only does the pilot learn from his mistake, but he tells his flying club colleagues and they learn by proxy.
In the Cosford RAT case, the pilot may have been given 'duff gen', or he may have been lost, or he may have been negligent - time will tell.
Nobody has thought to praise the 'safety nets' the Red Arrows Management team and Shawbury ATC had in place to avoid disaster. The Approach Controller was giving the Reds a RIS, and made a good spot when he called a very small, non-squawking aircraft to the Reds. With the information they had, they made the decision to 'knock it off' - their safety nets worked.
It is not helpful for members of Pprune to call for the 'hanging' of the motor glider pilot. If he/she is reading this, he is now unlikely to submit an open and honest report into the incident. That hampers the investigation, although we will probably trace the ac through our (very good) radar tracing people.
All investigations culminate in 'appropriate' action being taken. A negligent act can attract a hefty fine and in rare cases, jail. However, genuine mistakes/lapses/errors are usually dealt with at a much lower level - maybe a formal letter to the CFI. Many GA pilots talk to ATC on the phone shortly after their infringement and the issue is resolved at a 'local' level. In my experience, this is effective - not only does the pilot learn from his mistake, but he tells his flying club colleagues and they learn by proxy.
In the Cosford RAT case, the pilot may have been given 'duff gen', or he may have been lost, or he may have been negligent - time will tell.
Nobody has thought to praise the 'safety nets' the Red Arrows Management team and Shawbury ATC had in place to avoid disaster. The Approach Controller was giving the Reds a RIS, and made a good spot when he called a very small, non-squawking aircraft to the Reds. With the information they had, they made the decision to 'knock it off' - their safety nets worked.
JP, ref the Tremblers 22 ship loop. I have a dim and distant memory that an East European Air Force, possibly Poland, looped approx 30 Mig 15s (?) to claim the record. I recall seeing the SOP fuzzy photo but can't be certain---anyone any firm gen?